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View Diary: RKBA: A point or two (900 comments)

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  •  What evidence for ANY of that? (11+ / 0-)

    Seriously?

    People always bring up the UK. Great. The UK had less murders BEFORE gun control. The UK has better social safety nets. The UK has better health insurance. Not sure on the poverty rate at the moment but I thought that was also better.

    Good thing rights aren't based on needs.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 09:18:01 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  UK, Canada (13+ / 0-)

      Australia, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland...

      To name a few.

      Sure, there a nutjobs who do manage to get their hands on and use, to devastating effect, various weapons to kill people n wanton fashion.

      But the basic, straightforward, testable data and analyses point to some very simple conclusions:

      1) Access to guns is correlated to increased violence with guns.
      2) The more powerful and easy-to-use the guns are, the more likely that they do get used to devastating effect.
      3) Regulation of access to, and regulation of type of firearms has had and continues to have long-term impacts on (lowering of) the numbers, percentage, proportion, and frequency of gun-related violence.

      It's data. Data has no agenda.

      I support the right to own and operate tools. Tools are useful, but can be misused. Shovels are useful, and everyone can and should have a shovel. A Hyundai R800LC-7A excavator is extremely powerful and can be very dangerous. Ownership, operation, licensing, insurance, and access to such an extremely powerful tool should be regulated and overseen.

      The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

      by RedDan on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 09:26:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Breaking out gun laws and saying that's the (8+ / 0-)

        only reason why doesn't work.

        Or else we'd be looking at Russia, Mexico, and Argentina as well.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 09:30:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To be fair, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero

          Mexico is a very special case.  Because we, as in Americans, keep selling guns privately to the Mexican cartels.  WE are arming the drug cartels who then kill 50-something people per day in Tiajuana.

          "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

          by Silvia Nightshade on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 10:32:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  some guns certainly do head south just like drugs (6+ / 0-)

            head north but the serious weaponry, the full autos the submachine guns, the grenades and RPGs, the actual military weaponry comes north from Central and South America....

            There have been shipments from China intercepted also....

            If every single gun from the US disappeared now, they would still be as well armed as their military....

            Hell they are building  submarines now to get past the Coasties.....

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 11:00:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  We are the reason Mexico HAS cartels. Because (7+ / 0-)

            so many Americans need to kill themselves with drugs.

            **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

            by glorificus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 11:01:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Which is why (8+ / 0-)

              I support legalization--not because I WANT people to do drugs, but because legalization puts the cartels out of business.  Legalization of marijuana, at least.  They don't make nearly as much money on the other drugs, and those enterprises are supported by the money they make hand over fist selling pot.

              But, I'm derailing this diary, so I'll shut up now.

              "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

              by Silvia Nightshade on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 11:12:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  actually you are not, one of the biggies in most (9+ / 0-)

                members of DDK RKBA is legalization as it would have more impact on violent crime than almost anything.

                Along with national health care to help diagnose and heal the violent severely mentally ill, end the class war being waged by the 1%, a true living wage, good schools in bad neighborhoods to give the kids a chance, repairing and fully funding NICS and figuring out a way to get the violent SMI population into the system without violating medical privacy, change the wording on the felon restriction to violent crime instead of just felon which tends to disproportionately disenfranchise people of color, I would even agree to requiring a NICS on any gun show sale as long as it didnt sweep up all private sales. There is no purpose in running a NICS on every gun when I want to trade a couple to a buddy or brother for a couple they have.

                It is already a felony to sell to anyone from out of state or anyone you know or have reason to know is a prohibited possessor, use that existing law to sting the bad actors and we could cut bad sales dramatically.  It is a felony to act as a dealer without an ffl so again a simple sting to catch those who do would help.  Fund BATFE but at the same time tighten the leash so shit like fast and furious and other tales of ridiculous ATF opinions that act as law end.

                I think all these are pretty reasonable dont you?

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 11:55:53 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It seems no matter how many times these (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly, PavePusher, BlackSheep1

                  excellent points get repeated, so many here simply can't process or absorb them.  It's a shame.  

                  •  it is a damn shame and could cost us dearly in (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ancblu, PavePusher, BlackSheep1

                    the future.

                    Any or all of these will have more impact on violence rates than anything having to do with so called assault weapons or magazine size....

                    are you an RKBA member? if not let us know and we can get you hooked up for your share of the abuse...heh.....

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:07:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well ... even though I'm not a member (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      buddabelly, BlackSheep1

                      of RKBA, I am completely sympathetic to the cause and arguments.  I do follow these types of diaries as I am able - whether they are control or rights focussed -- and don't hesitate to jump in and try to give as good as I get (my profession and temperment).

                      My abiding regret as a hard core lefty is that the majority of staunch progressives, liberals and democrats here on DK do not recognize the import of the private 2A right under the Bill of Rights, remain firmly distainful of technical knowledge, resort much too frequently to emotional invective, willfully disregard relevant data and would pursue policies that will severely damage our national partisan interests if unwise regulatory efforts are pursued.

                      Without anything much more as a point of connection, I feel pretty close with almost all RKBA folks on these points and appreciate the sense of committed purpose.  There are some pretty experienced and intelligent folks in the group.

                      I guess I'm not really much of a "joiner" though but thanks for the invite ... you'll keep seeing me and I'll keep reccing you and others for sensibility on this issue.

                •  I'm mostly with ya, buddabelly, but (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly

                  I could actually go for the NICS check on all sales. I'd really like if they'd actually fix the stinking thing so it worked the way it should ... if it hadn't been broken, as I understand it, it might've stopped Cho.

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                  by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 12:23:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think of it this way, the most common way I and (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound, BlackSheep1, KVoimakas

                    most I know acquire new to us guns is trading back and forth much more than we ever buy for cash new or private party.

                    In Ca. where all transfers require a NICS dealers charge a c note for the service....

                    recently I traded a buddy 5 different guns, 4 rifles and an old S&W breaktop in 32 for a single Rem model 30 express, pristine metal with seriously nice old Bushnell glass.  All that happened is the guns moved from my safe to his.  It cost both of us nothing yet in Ca it would have been a 600 dollar bill for nothing.

                    I havent looked for the stat recently but iirc it was somewhere around 3-5% of crime guns come from gun show or any private purchase, the great majority of crime guns are either stolen or straw purchased, as that is the case I just dont see the need to run a NICS on every private sale or trade.  Heck if that passed, I couldnt give my son a rifle out of my safe without paying the piper....

                    I wouldn't object to there being a booth set up where non FFl holders could run a NICS at gun shows, it might even be a good idea though the stats show not much difference, like an AWB in that matter.... However I think most would agree to that where all private sales being run through NICS including trades like mine would engender a lot of opposition......

                    Now if the price was capped at 10-20 bucks and all FFL holders were required to perform the NICS no hassles, no overcharging and trades like mine only required only 2 cks, one on each of us most opposition would melt away.....

                    Again, I dont think it would do much but I dont mind some symbolic stuff....The Cho episode is both an argument to fix NICS and an argument against magazine bans as he only used restricted capacity magazines.  On magazine issues, imo if the regulation was to whatever the manufacturer designed it for instead of an arbitrary number that would also fly with little opposition....that would allow standard capacity mags while outlawing the truly oversized mags like the Beta-C twin drum 100 round mags....

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 02:10:32 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I just think if the thing'd've been working right (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      buddabelly, KVoimakas

                      the VaTech shooting doesn't happen. Cho had been ruled a danger to himself by a judge.

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                      by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 05:26:21 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Unless I am mistaken, the flaws in the system (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        buddabelly

                        that enabled Cho to buy his weapons has been addressed.  Still, one has to remember that any protective system like that has what in the software industry are referred to as zero day exploits; ways to get around the system that haven't been discovered by the good guys yet.

                        •  A huge one of which is underfunding/undermanning (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          buddabelly

                          the data entry part of the system. :(

                          I know this firsthand from another system I worked in, as a public health tech. The number of cases of Hepatitis C in Texas is large enough to create a need for at least one full-time-employee in every regional DSHS HQ to do nothing but input for that database. Not only was no such position created to go with the registry, funding for the programs aimed at prevention (at that time no cure had been found) got slashed repeatedly ("it's just drug users and prisoners. Why bother?").

                          I hate the Texas Lege with the fire of a million supernovas. During the 2012 elections, we didn't even have Democratic candidates to run....

                          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                          by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 09:03:56 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  What buddabelly said ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                And substance abuse, whether alcohol or drugs, is one of the stonger positive correlating variables to gun violence.

                Our drug laws and racially disproporationate criminal sentencing fully exacerbates all the various underlying causative factors behind our most serious gun violence issues in metropolitan/urban areas.

          •  We would also sell guns to people (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher

            in Europe and Australasia, but they're not buying.

            Why?  They're much closer to serious drug trade than the Mexicans are.

      •  Switzerland? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theboz, PavePusher

        Everybody in Switzerland has a gun.

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