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View Diary: The Electric Car, Cost-effective and Affordable: Available Now! (207 comments)

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  •  uprating because (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I really have no idea what's so HRworthy about this one.

    Certainly not the first sentence; I for one can't see the sense of having an electric car in my area of the country, where most of the electricity is generated from nasty old coal.  Not my idea of clean transportation.  I'd feel differently if I could charge a car from solar panels, of course.

    •  What area of the country do you live in ? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Do you have electrical power in your home ?
      Do you have natural gas in your home ?
      What fuel do you burn in your car now ?

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:32:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You seem to be looking for a fight. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deward Hastings


        •  Not at all . (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Simple questions . No fight .

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:51:19 PM PST

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          •  I've seen your behavior elsewhere (0+ / 0-)

            and stand by my perceptions.

            •  I've just been looking at your comments . (4+ / 0-)

              You say some very interesting things to people for one who is afraid that someone else is looking for a fight .

              No, your comment is ridiculous.
              Liar. Or illiterate. Take your pick.
              Anyway , if you run your home on the electricity that you claim is to dirty to run your vehicle on , why not choose to run a gasoline powered generator , or if you run your vehicle on diesel , a diesel generator might suit your needs ?

              If you heat your home with natural gas you could cogenerate by using a natural gas generator to charge your batteries while heating your home .

              And then again if you have natural gas to your home you could go for a cng set up , a vehicle that burns natural gas and a compressor to pump the natural gas into your vehicles tank .

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:18:00 PM PST

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    •  Even using coal-fired electricity, an electric car (7+ / 0-)

      ... is cleaner than most of the internal combustion engine cars on the road in the US. The electric motor is much, much better at transforming power into motion (whereas an internal combustion engine turns most of the power from gasoline into heat, a portion of which is used to create motion).

      If your car gets 33 mpg or better, and you live in the worst region in the country for CO2-producing electric utilities (basically: Colorado), then an EV isn't going to be an improvement. However, the average mileage in American cars on the road today is: 21 mpg.

      We'd buy electric in a heartbeat if there were more charging stations in rural VT and NH. Instead, we have a hybrid. The one we bought is on track to saving $300/yr in gas vs the 10-year-old hybrid that we retired. Alas, we drove that one into the ground (both literally and figuratively). Hopefully the poor old thing will make a nice parts car for someone.

      •  We've got an iMIEV. (3+ / 0-)
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        splashy, radical simplicity, elginblt

        ...and love it dearly.  Still looking for it on our electric bill -- I estimate costs at  around $17 per month. Insurance company likes it too.

        President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

        by mwm341 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 08:01:32 AM PST

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      •  the electric motor (0+ / 0-)

        is "better", yes.  But when you total up all the losses in the electric generating and distribution system (batteries, chargers, transmission lines, coal fired boilers) you get back to the more basic question:

        Is internal combustion more or less "efficient" than external combustion?

        There's a reason "steamships" and "steam locomotives" were replaced by diesel, and that reason has to do with efficiency.  It is not at all clear that the whole-system efficiency of electric cars in any higher than internal combustion . . . particularly when the ICE is coupled with on-board hybrid support to increase its efficiency even further.  So it's not at all clear that electric cars bring any benefit in CO2 reduction, unless the electricity to run them comes from somewhere other than fossil fuels.  At present, in most places, it doesn't.  Most electric cars are in fact coal burning cars (or natural gas burning at best), and they are in fact "dirty".  Hybrids are, in fact, "cleaner".

         The "solution" to the transportation CO2 problem is not "electric", it is carbon neutral synfuel, coupled with smaller and more efficient engines in the car.  I get 31 mpg overall in a Scion xB . . . a "hybrid" engine of the same output would give near 50 (look at the Ford C-Max).  An "electric" motor (and batteries) giving the same power and range would weigh 500-1000 lbs more and cost far more to operate unless provided with subsidized electricity and free battery replacements.

        It is not "more efficient" to simply pass those costs on to someone else.

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 08:06:08 AM PST

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      •  I'm an old (0+ / 0-)

        retired autoworker. I'm glad to see these things starting to be a viable mode of transportation. I'm especially happy to see the Big Three making their inroads in this technology.

        Question. I understand the concerns about "dirty electricity" to charge these (but I still think they're better than the internal combustion engine) but wasn't there also issues with how the batteries were made - their ecological impact or something like that?

        Or who knows, maybe it was propaganda but out by big oil.....  

        "If fighting for a more equal and equitable distribution of the wealth of this country is socialistic, I stand guilty of being a socialist." Walter Reuther

        by fugwb on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 08:52:31 AM PST

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        •  There were 2 battery issues (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fugwb, Assaf

          1) The infrastructure for recycling was very limited 10 years ago. It has improved dramatically since, so that's no longer an issue.

          2) Some of the materials used are in limited supply, in places we'd be better off not supporting with our money (e.g., China). There is promising work in progress, worldwide, to replace those materials, which should make the batteries even cleaner in the future. But with recycling, it's much less of a problem than it was when EVs made their first forays into the market.

          I agree that it's very important to make sure we're not solving the problem by creating a bigger problem - just look at "natural" gas vs other fossil fuels. With fracking, the lack of ability to control methane releases is making this supposed "bridge" fuel worse than coal in terms of its warming impact.

          The UCS study cited in the article above takes all these factors into account, for exactly that reason: not creating a bigger problem than we are trying to solve is critical.

    •  IF you could charge from solar panels (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Well get with it then. You are the person looking for a fight. These people are posting information on new and better solutions but you cry that it's not perfect. Mmmmmm, K.

      •  They are not (0+ / 0-)

        "new and better solutions".  That's the problem.

        If they were in fact "better" then people would be all over them, without the "subsidies" and mythical "free electricity".

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 08:13:28 AM PST

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        •  But, electric is perfect for transitioning away (0+ / 0-)

          From the dirty energy generation.

          You can buy electric, and as the grid moves into alternatives your vehicle is moving into the alternatives without you doing anything.

          It's the long view.

          Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

          by splashy on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 11:22:23 AM PST

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    •  I get where you are coming from (0+ / 0-)

      But there is the fact that as the grid transitions away from coal an electric car will transition right along with it, without the owner doing anything different.

      If I could afford to get an electric car that would do what we need I would do it in a heartbeat, even if the electricity is powered by coal. It's still less carbon than burning gasoline.

      Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

      by splashy on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 11:15:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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