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View Diary: Updated: President Says No Platinum Coin (187 comments)

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  •  as i said (2+ / 0-)
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    Progressive Pen, divineorder

    i'll wait to hear from the fed.

    and here's another clue: when a treasury spokesman says on the record that the treasury wouldn't accept the coin, he's either off script or he's relaying what he's been told from above. treasury does what the white house tells it to do. hmm...

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 07:53:28 PM PST

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    •  Oh, so you're suggesting (0+ / 0-)

      that a Treasury spokesperson never talks to a Fed spokesperson? Interesting.

      Don't know why you need to belabor this to the point of conspiracy theories though. I get that you don't believe the reporting. As I've said 3 x's now - that's cool. We all do it.

      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:03:12 PM PST

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      •  i'm suggesting (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Progressive Pen, divineorder

        that the fed can speak for itself.

        and no- you do it, i don't. i've been clear that i won't believe what is reported third party. you clearly believe what you want to believe. but given that the treasury is responsible to the white house, i'm guessing you don't care, either way.

        let me ask a very simple question: if obama printed the coin, would that be okay with you? given that constitutional scholars such as jack balkin and laurence tribe say it's legal, he certainly has cover. so, can you take a stand on the issue, apart from what obama does or doesn't do? if it comes to a clear choice, should he print the coin, and tell treasury to accept it, or would it be better to slash budgets?

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:09:58 PM PST

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        •  You give away the lie (0+ / 0-)

          when you suggest that you don't pick and chose what reporting to pay attention to. We all do it.

          But then you demonstrate it by picking which constitutional scholars you're paying attention to...balkin and tribe. How about Michael Dorf?

          Some commentators suggest that the Treasury could generate $2 trillion for the government by minting two platinum coins, using an obscure law that was enacted for the express purpose of creating memorabilia. But doing so would be economically equivalent to borrowing $2 trillion and thus, even if technically legal, would violate the substance of the debt ceiling law.
          The questions you ask are clearly designed to suggest that I don't think for myself on issues and must be a mindless Obamabot. That's so typical. Its also a dead give-away that I'm dealing with someone who has run out of arguments and wants to go personal. I just want you to know that I see what you're doing.

          To give you a lifeline that might help you avoid going there I'll say that no, I've never supported the magic coin argument. Putting aside the fact that its legality is in question, I oppose it because - to expand on what someone said elsewhere in this thread - we're not dealing with a legal or economic situation. This is a political crisis. And we'll lose the political battle if the public sees us doing something they don't understand and feel is a gimmick.

          For quite a while now I've been suggesting that Obama likely has a worst case scenario plan - but he won't be telegraphing what it is because that would indicate a "blink" in his commitment to put this all on Republicans. It wasn't until today that the administration made that plan overt.

          A long time ago I suggested to those who don't agree with Obama that they should study him rather than just complain. It struck me that understanding him would give us clues about how to work with/influence him. I've spent the last 5 years studying him and have gotten pretty good at predicting what his approach will be.  

          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:45:46 PM PST

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          •  wrong again (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            divineorder

            throughout this process i've been saying i won't believe what isn't officially on the record. your standards may be different than mine, but don't assume "we all do it."

            and even dorf says it is technically legal. which means it can be technically done.

            and i have faith that the public will agree that the unprecedented brinksmanship of the republicans merits an unprecedented response. obama is popular, the republicans are not. business leaders are all but begging the republicans to stand down. and unlike some, i'm not given to studying people i don't personally have experience with. plenty of people study him, and plenty have reached conclusions far different than yours. funny, that. i stick to issues and results.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:53:29 PM PST

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            •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk

              that the public is with us now. Pulling a stunt with a magic coin is a sure-fire way of losing them. The fact that it might be technically legal is part of the problem. That's why it would be a really stupid move.

              Its also cool that you don't want to understand Obama. I'm a recovering therapist so its sort-of inevitable that I'd want to. I merely pointed it out because you were wanting to suggest that I don't think for myself and only follow Obama. I was responding to say that at least some of the time what I'm doing is predicting what he'll do. I've gotten really good at that and it makes me a better advocate.

              Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

              by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:08:23 PM PST

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              •  how i tremble (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                divineorder

                yeah, the already deeply unpopular republicans defy the pleading of the business community, not to mention common sense, and endanger our entire economy, and obama trumps them with a harmless gimmick that is legal and that makes it impossible for them to continue to threaten the entire economy, and the public would side with the republicans. sure.

                david mizner also has been studying obama. based on obama's actual words. i find people's actual words to be instructive. you might want to check it out.

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:13:39 PM PST

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                •  Heh... (0+ / 0-)

                  Yeah, its clear that neither you nor Mizner have much of a clue about how to study a person. Aren't guys like you the ones that are always saying things like "don't buy what he says, I'll watch what he does." Oops, that one doesn't work this time though, does it?

                  To give you a lesson in how its done, here's me on the same issue.

                  And no, the public wouldn't side with the Republicans. They'd say "a pox on both your houses," which is exactly what the Republicans want.

                  A couple of years ago, a Republican committee staff director told me candidly (and proudly) what the method was to all this obstruction and disruption. Should Republicans succeed in obstructing the Senate from doing its job, it would further lower Congress's generic favorability rating among the American people. By sabotaging the reputation of an institution of government, the party that is programmatically against government would come out the relative winner.

                  A deeply cynical tactic, to be sure, but a psychologically insightful one that plays on the weaknesses both of the voting public and the news media. There are tens of millions of low-information voters who hardly know which party controls which branch of government, let alone which party is pursuing a particular legislative tactic. These voters' confusion over who did what allows them to form the conclusion that "they are all crooks," and that "government is no good," further leading them to think, "a plague on both your houses" and "the parties are like two kids in a school yard." This ill-informed public cynicism, in its turn, further intensifies the long-term decline in public trust in government that has been taking place since the early 1960s - a distrust that has been stoked by Republican rhetoric at every turn ("Government is the problem," declared Ronald Reagan in 1980).

                  Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                  by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:28:20 PM PST

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                  •  what he does? (0+ / 0-)

                    like making deals that every step of the way play into the gop economic narrative? that kind of what he does?

                    and yeah, obama shuts down gop brinksmanship and the public equally blames him. how i tremble.

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:34:41 PM PST

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                    •  I'm talking about (0+ / 0-)

                      the kind of thing he does like cutting $716 billion out of Medicare spending. And so when we match the words he's spoken about further reforms to Medicare, we come to the conclusion that he'll likely do it. We can also match how he's done it in the past with what he's saying about how he'll do it in the future.

                      I'm not real confident you'll be able to see that the reason Obama can best the Republicans when it comes to public opinion lately is that he's spent 4 years demonstrating to them that he's the reasonable one. One swipe at a gimmick like a magic coin has the potential to cost him a lot of that political capital.

                      In the end though, the magic coin is dead. Its time to move on to making sure the message is loud and clear to the public that the Republicans are playing with fire and exert as much pressure as possible to get them to pass a clean debt ceiling increase.

                      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                      by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:50:10 PM PST

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                      •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        katiec

                        and given that he got deficit fever when we actually needed a second stimulus, and appointed a deficit commission headed by simpson and bowles, of all people, i guess we can study what his economic agenda really might be.

                        as i wrote during the election campaign, i thought he had changed, in the aftermath of the occupy movement. his rhetoric certainly did. and i will continue to exporiate and mock the republicans, but if obama ends up cutting another lousy deal with them, i won't blame them. none of this had to be.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:53:34 PM PST

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                        •  Yeah, (0+ / 0-)

                          Folks like you always assume that the Republicans would have cried "uncle" long ago if Obama had only done things your way. What's funny to me is that you are also the ones who want to call him naive for underestimating their intransigence.

                          The truth is, the president has always been on to this game the republicans are playing. He even talked about it right here on dkos back in Sept. 2005.

                          A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.
                          That isn't 11th dimensional chess. Its just understanding political dynamics.

                          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                          by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:09:48 PM PST

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                          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                            the false equivalency. in his own words. wolf blitzer or david broder couldn't have said it better. thanks for proving my point.

                            gosh, the republicans are scary.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:11:45 PM PST

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                          •  It must be late (0+ / 0-)

                            because now you're not making any sense.

                            Compare what Obama said in 2005 to how former Republican staffer Mike Lofgren described the Republican strategy in the comment I posted up above. Obama nailed it. And yes, the media feeds it as a false equivalence. THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM!

                            But Obama's reasonableness is finally beginning to break through and the Republican party is clearly in its death throes. The last thing we need to do right now is throw them a lifeline by doing something crazy simply because they are being crazy.

                            Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:20:43 PM PST

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                          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                            the media feed it and obama agrees with it. nice. and his reasonableness sure is getting great results. his first negotiation since winning a mandate reelection, with the polls solidly behind him, both personally and on the issue, and he trades one of his main campaign themes for but a 60 day delay on playing the game again. that'll show 'em!

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:28:08 PM PST

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                          •  My gawd... (0+ / 0-)

                            Don't you EVER have an original thought? You're simply spouting dkos talking points now.

                            His reasonableness is the major reason why his approval ratings are in the mid-50's and Congress's are on par with STD's while the Republicans struggle to find any relevance.

                            Where would we be if he'd done what folks like you have been suggesting? Would the Republicans have cried "uncle" by now? Not a chance. But we'd be stuck in gridlock with everyone saying "a pox on both their houses."

                            His main campaign theme was a promise that middle class people would not see their income taxes raised. He delivered. To get that he raised the upper limit to be on par with where Clinton rates would be when you factor in inflation. If you think thats a BFD - you're pretty clueless. And in return - he got a bit more than a 60 month delay in the sequestration - for which he'll be demanding additional revenue from the wealthy in exchange for replacing the cuts. He got UI extended as well as a 5 year extension on tax cuts for the middle class that actually double as stimulus.

                            Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by NLinStPaul on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:42:36 PM PST

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                          •  talking points? (0+ / 0-)

                            lol- you need to look in a mirror more often.

                            his reasonableness is why, despite being up against the most batshit crazy republicans ever, his approval rating isn't higher, and was barely above water throughout the election season. thank god for the republican "talent" pool!

                            he said he would let all tax cuts expire above 250k. the gop cried class warfare. he won. and yeah, he got another year of ui in exchange for an indefinite tax cut for 250k-400k. nice trade. and next year, what will he give up for one more year? and continuing the tax cuts isn't stimulus, it's a small blow against austerity. but now we get to play the whole game again in a month and a half, and he doesn't have the tax cuts as leverage. we'll see how that goes. and the gop can threaten the debt ceiling again, and obama has taken one of his weapons off the table with that, too. we'll see how that goes. some good things are off the table, but brinksmanship and austerity aren't.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 10:56:51 PM PST

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                          •  I'll simply note that (0+ / 0-)

                            you never answered my question (that I asked twice now) about where you think we'd be if Obama had done what you would suggest. Would the Republicans have cried "uncle" by now because Obama was being so tough?

                            I see you alluded to an answer by suggesting that if he had been more unreasonable, you think his approval ratings would be higher. Now that's pretty funny. Because all that's left in the Republican ranks are the old white male racists. And you think he would have won them over by being unreasonable. Let me give you a clue...he's NEVER going to win them over - no matter what he does. He's scooped up all the real estate between himself and the nutjobs - while they continue on their path to oblivion.

                            But of course you assume that's because of the Republican "talent" pool he's faced. In other words...he's just been lucky in his opposition. It has nothing to do with the fact that he saw the obstruction coming and gave the Republicans the chance to either work with him or paint themselves into a more and more extremist corner in their opposition.

                            I'd be the last one to say that Obama is perfect. As a matter of fact, I think that if he had it to do over again, he probably wouldn't have gone for the "grand bargain" over the last debt ceiling challenge. This particular one needs to be nipped in the bud.

                            But what I find fascinating is that just when he learned from that and is taking the opposite position this time, folks like you are still at him because he isn't going to buy your magic coin idea to let the Republicans off the hook. What that tells me is that you're stuck in your negative narrative. Other than point it out, there's not much anyone can do about that.

                            Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by NLinStPaul on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 06:53:25 AM PST

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              •  Lincoln - greenbacks. FDR - fiat (0+ / 0-)

                FDR took us off the gold standard for national settlement.

                He could not have afforded all he did if we had remained on gold.

                He pulled paper out of thin air.

                He was bold.

                If Obama would pull a coin out of thin air, then the whole debate surrounding what we can or can't afford would go away.                                                      

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