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View Diary: WCWAO? Legitimate and Illegitimate uses of guns. (163 comments)

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  •  I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Smoh, glorificus, trumpeter

    Right now, I'm under the impression that we're trying to reach a consensus about what needs to be done.

    If we're only going to talk about legality, we're already getting mired in the infighting that prevents progress on this issue.

    I do not consider this exercise pointless, seeing as it has created some extremely civil dialogue already.

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 07:48:10 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  but that's the thing (5+ / 0-)

      beyond legal/illegal, "legitimate" is a very subjective term, i.e. largely opinion.

      law > opinion

      Right now, I'm under the impression that we're trying to reach a consensus about what needs to be done.
      absolutely.  "what needs to be done" refers specifically to legislation, i.e., laws.  and what needs to be done is to prevent illegal uses of guns.  so why bother defining what "legitimate" uses are?  

      the problem is the illegal usage; that is what needs to be clearly defined in order to determine the best way (laws) forward.  what law-abiding gun owners do couldn't matter less; they are not the problem.  

      imHo, the primary consideration on how to move forward is what would be the most effective, which is a function of both actually mitigating (gun) violence and being able to get out of congress.

      the most immediate and direct effects would come from repealing the tiahrt amendment and allowing BATF to actually do its job.  they haven't had a full-time director in years.  cracking down on crooked FFLs would go a long way to keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

      apparently, obama can take action to expand mental health services via executive order.  that would be an immediate and direct effect.

      but predicating the path to "gun control" on subjectively defining what is legitimate use is not standing on solid ground.

      identify the criminal uses and set about preventing those.  why ponder the inner workings of the carburetor when it's the spark plugs that are blinkered, yannow?

      peace

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:21:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The steps you outline are good. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, glorificus

        But are rather specific, and respectfully, outside the stated purpose of this diary, which is to come to a baseline agreement.

        I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not this diary is a fruitless exercise.

        I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

        by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:25:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  the diary is not fruitless (4+ / 0-)

          defining the problem uses is essential to fixing the problem.  defining legitimate uses is not.

          peace

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:30:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I see. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh, glorificus

            So you consider that only the negative implications need to be addressed.  (Correct me if I'm wrong)

            I honestly don't think that's a good point to start the discussion.  There are uses for guns, and by not talking about the uses that we consider legitimate, we are placing excessive negativity on the weapon.

            In essence, had I only talked about the negative aspects of weapons, I feel that this diary would not have been balanced and would have only served to heighten tensions between the pro gun and anti gun crowds.

            As it is, I'm quite flattered to see prominent members of both sides reccing the diary, and the discussion remaining far more civil than our discourse in the past few months.

            I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

            by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:35:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  in a nutshell, yeah. that's what i'm saying (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose, PavePusher, gerrilea

              what gun owners who do not break any laws do with their guns do could not matter less in this debate.  and we can't afford to alienate allies in this.

              the problem is the illegal uses; define those and what gives rise to them and seek to remedy those situations.   ending the drug war, repealing tiahrt etc. why go through the hassle of reverse-engineering -- what working off of consensus on legitimate use basically is -- when it's much more straightforward to focus legislation on preventing illegal usage?

              Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

              by Cedwyn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:44:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ignore that third "do" hahaha n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea

                Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                by Cedwyn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:45:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Because of poisoned wells. (2+ / 0-)

                We're looking at a great deal of propaganda which has been tossed about and assumptions which are made by one side or the other, which effectively have shut down the discourse.

                By starting at the bottom, we eliminate much of that baggage, instead concentrating on where we agree and what we can do to work forward.

                I understand your concerns, but the groundwork is not truly laid for this.

                I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

                by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:50:43 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  and all i'm saying (4+ / 0-)

                  is that the only groundwork that need be laid is identifying the pressure points of preventing illegal usage.  so we look at laws to strengthen enforcement agencies, repeal tiahrt, and other means of keeping guns out of criminals' hands.    

                  leave law-abiding gun owners alone and you'll have lots of allies.  set about trying to define what is legitimate (or not) for others and you will not.

                  peace.

                  Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                  by Cedwyn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 09:09:54 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And once again, we're back to where we disagree. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Cedwyn, glorificus

                    I'm hearing you, and I understand you point.  I'm also not trying to define for others.  I'm trying to come to an agreement with the others.

                    It's a fine difference, I admit, but it's the difference between a discussion and a proclamation.  

                    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

                    by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 09:11:57 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps this might help ... (3+ / 0-)

              The "legitimate" uses listed above are legal and should remain legal.  

              It's possible that there are legal uses of a gun that perhaps shouldn't be legal.   What are they, and can we discuss if they should remain legal?

              The "illegitimate" uses listed above are illegal and should remain illegal.

              It's possible there are currently illegal uses of a gun that perhaps shouldn't be illegal.  What are there, and can we discuss if they should remain illegal?

              I hope this is helpful.

              •  An excellent topic! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joy of Fishes, glorificus

                Thank you for adding to the discussion.

                discussion of specific laws is a great discussion to have, and merely define legitimacy by legality is severely limiting the potential discussion.

                However, that's a different diary, IMHO.

                I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

                by detroitmechworks on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:52:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Definitely not fruitless. (4+ / 0-)

          Perhaps the only way we will be able to meet on common ground to have meaningful discussion.  Thank you.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Mon Jan 14, 2013 at 08:46:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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