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  •  It does (4+ / 0-)
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    Nowhere Man, TiaRachel, burlydee, qofdisks

    and we start to enter into a separate but interesting conversation.  I guess, philisophically, I might agree with you.  Sexist culture hurts us all, by making our world worse.  But I'd say the same thing about racism, and yet, yeah, racism did and does benefit white people in certain measures.  

    It's a tricky rabbit hole, but you make a good big picture point.  But in the small picture, I still get paid more.  Now, does that benefit me if the real solution is that women get paid the same as me (so my salary doesn't go down in the ideal world, so am I really currently getting a benefit?)?  That depends on a larger philisophical attitude, I guess.  

    •  I don't have the statistics handy... (2+ / 0-)
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      Dr Swig Mcjigger, qofdisks

      ... but I think it's a good bet that most men of working age today either had a mother who was employed outside of the home, or is married to a woman who is (or who plans to be) employed outside of the home. So on that basis alone, wage discrimination against women does hurt men too!

      Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

      by Nowhere Man on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 11:44:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But if we cared more about that wage issue (2+ / 0-)
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        TiaRachel, qofdisks

        perhaps we could have fixed it way way back in the 1970s.
        Domestic violence hurts male children too, and yet...

        Believe me, if I could dress you up and make you pass as a female, I would love to send you to a doctor, just so you could experience this first hand. It will knock your socks off.

        Same things with police. Any call I make, if I don't have a male there to back me up with a corroborating story, I have learned that I most likely will not be taken that seriously, unless something is visibly on fire or something like that.

        Not being aware of the wrongness directly isn't the same as, "there is nothing wrong."

        •  I wonder if you misunderstood my point (3+ / 0-)

          I'm a proud third-generation feminist, raising fourth-generation feminists. I did not in any way mean to suggest that there is no problem with inequality. What I'm saying is that in many cases men as well as women would benefit by eliminating inequalities. (This in direct response to a claim upthread that men benefit by such inequalities.)

          (In fact, I believe that this is true in all cases, but I was focusing on the ones where it's easiest for me to demonstrate the point.)

          And just to bring this full circle, my support for equality does not in any way hinge on whether it benefits or harms men. On the other hand, perhaps if all men believed that they would benefit by women having fully equal status to men, it would happen in a heartbeat.

          Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

          by Nowhere Man on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 01:32:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, thank you, but it seemed to be that you were (1+ / 0-)
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            minimizing the emotional and social and professional impact of these practices on women directly.

            Yes yes, it hurts men too. Racism also hurts everyone, but I guarantee you that the direct impact is felt more keenly by the target than it is by the other people indirectly affected beyond immediate dependents.

            Imagine how angry that would make you, if people constantly undermined you professionally, while  they simultaneously attempt to use your gender and your real or imagined sexual caste against you, every day of your life.

            And then said, "--uh uh uh---mustn't get angry little lady...", because angry women are monstrous harridans that shall be ridiculed and ostracized, even more so than her unattractive, brainy, professional counterparts.

            It's not even a catch 22, it's so far beyond that.

            We will tell you not to wait for a man, that you have to be self sufficient, but then we do everything in our power to lessen the effectiveness of the tools and talents you have at your disposal to achieve that self sufficiency.

            We tell you to be sexy, and then rape you for being sexy, or judge you for being sexy, and then give you the shit end of the stick, when you decide to swear off sex or sexy. Hey you know you would probably get that promo, if you lost a little weight and I dunno, wore some makeup. Which is it? Frigid bitch or slutty slattern ?--these are your choices.

            It's difficult for everyone, but here on this forum right now, we are mostly discussing very specific difficulties that women face in this society.

            And just because it could be worse, doesn't qualify this as a golden age by any stretch of the imagination.

            Sure we have come a long way, but like many other civil rights issues, we have a long long way to go.

            I know--I get tired of it too. I want it to be better like magic and not have to worry about this bullshit any more--just like a lot of people feel that way about their specific isms they face. But the world apparently just doesn't work that way.

            So I thank you for being conscientious and caring, but it's okay if women discuss or even rant about stuff that pisses them off, that frustrates them. If you don't do that, then great, but that doesn't mean that this isn't happening, or that it isn't being perpetrated by others.

    •  Getting towards one of the things (0+ / 0-)

      that often comes up in discussions of 'privilege' -- what everyone else sees as privileges afforded to the special few, they themselves see as rights that everyone should have.

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