Skip to main content

View Diary: The hypocrisy of gun control during the War on Terror (61 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I understand your point (6+ / 0-)

    And anticipated this response.
      I don't mean for a second to say that our forces shouldn't be protecting themselves from any and all mortal dangers.

     However, there are two other things to consider:

    1) as the article I linked to explains, we aren't just "looking for children" as in "Hey! Look out! There's a kid there!"
      We are killing them. The article talks about three kids digging alongside the road that we blown up.
       Were they digging for food as some claim? Or planting a bomb as a military claims? Neither claim is proven. The only thing we know for sure is that our military treated them as combatants and they are now dead.

    2) either way, treating children as combatants is against international law. Not to mention any sense of morality.
       Any way you cut it, this is insanity.

      So the beginning point of my diary is to show the contradictions of treating children as combatants that need to be murdered, and treating children as victims that need to be protected.
       I stick by that point (although I might have needed to explain it further).

    ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

    by gjohnsit on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 09:57:29 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Insanity it is. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SpecialKinFlag, Quicklund

      The crimes, unfortunately, are not committed by those who kill children digging by a roadside in the land of IEDs. In their situation anyone who wishes to remain alive would fire the shots in simple self defense.

      The crimes, and I repeat the plural - there's plenty enough blame for both sides, are committed by those who's crime is deploying children to do their dirty work against those who've committed the crime of invading their native soil.

      I think we are in complete agreement on that point. Nevertheless the mischaracterization of that self defense as "intentionally targeting children" is so misleading as to detract from the real points.

      Just sayin'.

      “Perhaps the most 'spiritual' thing any of us can do is simply to look through our own eyes, see with eyes of wholeness, and act with integrity and kindness.” Jon Kabat-Zinn

      by DaNang65 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 10:14:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong, those are crimes (4+ / 0-)
        The crimes, unfortunately, are not committed by those who kill children digging by a roadside in the land of IEDs. In their situation anyone who wishes to remain alive would fire the shots in simple self defense.
        Killing kids for digging on the side of the road is disgusting.
        Nevertheless the mischaracterization of that self defense as "intentionally targeting children" is so misleading as to detract from the real points.
        But they are intentionally targeting children.  Saying otherwise is straight up wrong.
        •  Trying to give your understanding the benefit (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY, Quicklund

          of the doubt I realize that we have completely different ideas of what "intentionally targeting children" means.

          My experience leads me to understand the phrase to mean a) intentionally, that is, a state of mind arrived at in the cool of reflection and not in the heat of a life threatening moment; and b) targeting children, that is, selecting them for death because they are children and not because they are persons engaging in activity that may result in the imminent death of oneself or those one is duty bound to protect.

          If your understanding of the phrase derives from any notion that average soldiers cooly decide to kill children simply for digging by the side of the road, without context, you have every right to be disgusted, but you're also totally failing to grasp the reality and complexity of the situation.

          “Perhaps the most 'spiritual' thing any of us can do is simply to look through our own eyes, see with eyes of wholeness, and act with integrity and kindness.” Jon Kabat-Zinn

          by DaNang65 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 11:10:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade

            Instead of "intentionally" I should have said "knowingly".

             But I stick with "targeting", not because it means "because they are children", but despite the fact they are children.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 01:08:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "targeting" is still misleading (0+ / 0-)

              For the reason DaNang65 gave you. "Targeting children" at bare minimum carries the connotation that children are the preferred target.

              Again, there is no information in either article to say the US soldiers knew ages of the people seen digging that hole on night vision. Indeed, how could they?

              Child soldiers are a tragedy but they are hardly a fiction and they are hardly limited to Afghanistan.

              At any rate, since this is entirely tangential to the point you aimed at with this diary, is it not obvious how a less accusatory title might have launched the diary on surer footing?

      •  Well, there's the children killed in (5+ / 0-)

        drone strikes, lets not forget.

        Meanwhile, U.S. drones are killing children and terrorizing families abroad. Earlier this year, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that 176 children have been murdered in Pakistan alone.
        For the source data: http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/...

        I didn't see the number merely maimed, though.


        Markos! Not only are the Gates Not Crashed, they've fallen on us. Actual Representatives are what we urgently need, because we have almost none.

        by Jim P on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 10:43:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I must disagree strongly (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RonV, allenjo, Simplify, shaharazade
        The crimes, unfortunately, are not committed by those who kill children digging by a roadside in the land of IEDs
         That's the same as saying we killed a child for acting suspicious.
           It's immoral, unforgiveable, and wrong.

         You need to rethink this statement.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 10:53:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps, rather than my needing to rethink my (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger, Quicklund

          statement you would be well served by putting yourself in the position of the combatants who actually take the shot. It's easy, here in the comfort of our keyboards, to be ever so moral. On the ground, there and then it's all different.

          I've been there. I know what it's like, at that moment and in all the long years that follow. I don't often tell stories about that stuff - most folks who've never been there wouldn't understand, couldn't understand, and those who've been there already know - but just the other night for some reason I related part of the story of a friend of mine who killed two children in a comment.

          The crime is committed by We, the People, when we send our agents out to kill or be killed.

          “Perhaps the most 'spiritual' thing any of us can do is simply to look through our own eyes, see with eyes of wholeness, and act with integrity and kindness.” Jon Kabat-Zinn

          by DaNang65 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 11:39:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We, the People (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            David Futurama, shaharazade

            we the people do not send our agents out to kill or be killed.

            we the people are outraged.

            we the people have put up with a war in Afghanistan that is now in its 12th year, because we the people keep getting lied to as to what the mission is, in its ever-changing goals.

            we the people, is just a quaint ole phrase that may have meant something  in that document as s the country was setting up.

            we the people were told by one president that the US does not torture when it did, by another president who supposedly stopped torture, but we are a country who still "renders" people to other countries, for what purpose, if not torture?

            we the people are lied to in so many ways, as we the people have a DOD with a 5 billion budget for its public relations department.

            There just is no longer a "We, the People", in this country. We just disappeared as the MIC took over.

            The crime is committed by We, the People, when we send our agents out to kill or be killed.

            "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

            by allenjo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 12:07:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And there we have genuine disagreement. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicklund

              We, the People, have allowed the MIC its place, with our fears, with our disinterest, with our abdication of social responsibility in pursuit of whatever geegaws have captured our attention.

              Saying "It wasn't it my name" is a cop out. Unless we rounce our citizenship and leave these shores we own all that is done in our names, like it or not.

              “Perhaps the most 'spiritual' thing any of us can do is simply to look through our own eyes, see with eyes of wholeness, and act with integrity and kindness.” Jon Kabat-Zinn

              by DaNang65 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 12:18:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The last protest marches for me were against (4+ / 0-)

                the Iraq war. When around 2/3 of the populace wanted out of the Iraq war, I recall the words of Cheney, "So", and more recently Panetta's words on Afghanistan.

                There is no we the people left in this country.

                So, if you still believe in we the people, do you have suggestions on how we stop this madness of military forays and military bases around the globe, the MIC sucking the economy dry?

                I am as politicially active as I can possibly be, but I have little faith left in we the people to have power to change much of anything in DC. There was a time when I felt the opposite.

                Perhaps a million person march might garner some attention in the press, but an impact to change the WH and congressional policies, I do not know the answer. I feel such despair as the insane foreign policy in this country continues on decade after decade.

                We, the People, have allowed the MIC its place, with our fears, with our disinterest, with our abdication of social responsibility in pursuit of whatever geegaws have captured our attention.

                Saying "It wasn't it my name" is a cop out. Unless we rounce our citizenship and leave these shores we own all that is done in our names, like it or not.

                How do we stop the MIC, the WH, and congress, (that  never lack the votes for war funding)?

                "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                by allenjo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 12:53:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Re: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DaNang65

            I hear what you are saying, and no, I have never been in combat.
               But then, for example, I've never committed a violent crime. That doesn't mean I can't make a moral judgement about it.

              More importantly, I'm not the first.
            The Geneva Convention makes moral judgements about treating children as combatants.

              There are certain things I don't have to do myself to have a say about.
               And I'm pretty sure that every American soldier that has ever killed a child, even in self-defense, can't help but feel he's done something wrong - even if he had no choice in the matter.

              War is an unnatural institution. People are forced to do unnatural and immoral things in it.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 01:04:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Many people here were outraged by the war (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicklund

      and continue to be, and many of those same people are outraged by the failure in US gun policy, and I don't see where you come off claiming moral superiority over hypocrites therefore.

    •  What we don't know is this (0+ / 0-)

      Did the people who called the strike know the people digging the hole in the road were children before or after the strike? If you've seen videos of night vision, details are not always abundant.

      I went through and read the Guardian article and the Military Times article on which the Guardian article was based. It is not clear exactly what happened to me from reading both.

      Also, in the quote from the battalion commander:

      "It kind of opens our aperture," said Carrington, whose unit, 1st Battalion, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment, was assisting the Afghan police. "In addition to looking for military-age males, it's looking for children with potential hostile intent."
      After reading both articles, I still don't know what "it" is. Let's just say some crucial detail or another seems to have fallen to the editing room floor.

      I get the point you are aiming for too. But I sure think that you could have launched this essay on firmer footing.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (140)
  • Community (59)
  • 2016 (39)
  • Environment (38)
  • Republicans (37)
  • Elections (32)
  • Bernie Sanders (32)
  • Culture (31)
  • Memorial Day (31)
  • Climate Change (25)
  • Media (25)
  • Spam (22)
  • Education (22)
  • Labor (22)
  • GOP (22)
  • Barack Obama (22)
  • Trans-Pacific Partnership (21)
  • Civil Rights (20)
  • Science (19)
  • Economy (19)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site