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  •  Without armed citizens we could never have (5+ / 0-)

    had our Revolution.

    Not only colonies but towns and hamlets were organized into militias and regulated thru town governments.

    It was not only the Continentals that fot the Redcoats but also the citizen soldiers in the hamlets & towns. The Selectmen who organized these militias were heroes of the Revolution as well as the soldiers.

    Here is the record of one such town:
    http://books.google.com/...
    Annals of the town of Mendon
    (see pages 340-376 for role of Selectman John Chapin in 1776)

    To say that the 2nd Amendment was only or even primarily, to protect Slaveholders is simplistic. Ignores the role that town governments (& note that these were Revolutionary governments in defiance of the King) and their "well-regulated" militias played in defending the Revolution.

    Had individuals not already had guns in their possession  when town militias were needed, the British could have roamed all over MA.

    When RWers in high office or running for high office feel free to publicly declare that 2nd Amendment remedies might be needed to correct unhappy election result, I like to remind them that RWers are not the only Americans covered by the 2nd Amendment.

    Pray it never happens, but the day could come that citizens are again needed to defend our elected representatives. (Think Chile's Salvador Allende.)

    WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

    by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 07:58:19 AM PST

    •  Without the French monarchists (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Inland, Chitown Kev, raincrow

      determine to settle the score with the British we would have never had a revolution.

      •  The revolution started before we knew (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, kalmoth, sensetolisten

        that the French monarch would support us.

        Again, your thinking is simplistic.

        But, yes, we owe the French a lot for joining in on our side. Also the Spanish.

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

        by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 08:19:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree entirely. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, JayRaye, kalmoth, sensetolisten

        The revolution began long before the French got involved. In my home state of Rhode Island we still celebrate Gaspee Day (1972) when colonists burned a British customs ship.

        Also, I believe the Americans would have won (eventually) without help from the French.

        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

        by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 08:24:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is the difference between (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          raincrow

          a rebellion and a revolution. It doesn't become a revolution unless you pull it off. That rebellion would not have resulted in a revolution without the French.

          •  Not a revolution until we had the blessing of the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HairyTrueMan, sensetolisten

            French?

            That is real nonsense. The day we declared Independence the fight went from being a rebellion to being a revolution.

            The Revolution itself, was completely peaceful; it only took a Declaration and the ringing of bells.

            Defending the Revolution, however, was another matter.

            Could the peaceable principle of the Quakers be universally established, arms and the art of war would be wholly extirpated: But we live not in a world of angels...I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly agree with all the world to lay aside the use of arms, and settle matters by negotiation: but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and thank Heaven He has put it in my power.”
            ― Thomas Paine

            WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

            by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 09:29:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If the British had prevailed (0+ / 0-)

              and put down the rebellion then the Declaration of Independence would have become a little know historical curiosity. The rebellion became a revolution when the British surrendered at Yorktown. The French fleet was a major part of that engagement.

              •  Definitions are not retroactive. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sensetolisten

                Had we lost, it would have been a failed revolution.

                The day we declared Independence we were officially another nation. On that day the Revolution took place. And even before that we had government in place. At the national level and at the town level. These were Revolutionary governments in defiance of the King.

                We negotiated Nation to Nation for help from the French and Spanish. That is because the Revolution had already taken place.  We were already an Independent Nation. The French and the Spanish helped us defend our Revolution, but they did not make us a nation.

                WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

                by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 09:49:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I still disagree. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Chitown Kev, JayRaye

            I think the French helped shorten the war, but ultimately the British could not maintain control of the colonies. Guerrilla warfare is difficult to defeat, especially 3000 miles from home.

            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

            by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 09:32:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we never would have (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Richard Lyon, Cedwyn

        won the revolution, I'll go that far.

        Add to that, the French would not have had their own revolution not even a decade later as a part of that problem for Louis XVI was war debt (although it would have happened eventually, regardless).

    •  "Organized into militias". (0+ / 0-)

      Seems simple enough for me: why not have the states organize militias?

      Had individuals not already had guns in their possession  when town militias were needed, the British could have roamed all over MA.
      Strangely, the Brits were going to Concord and Lexington to confiscate armouries: places where the well organized militia kept arms.  

      At any rate, you like others argue too much.   It's clear that the drafters of the constitution weren't trying to make it a fair fight with the next group of rebels.   Like all revolutionaries, they thought one was enough.

      That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

      by Inland on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 08:07:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I mean (0+ / 0-)

      If armed citizens overthrow governments, why would I want armed citizens when I support our form of government?

      •  Did you read my post? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, sensetolisten

        Do you know who Salvador Allende is? The people who elected him were not in anyway capable of defending their election. They were sitting ducks when the junta came to take them away to the stadium.

        We are not the ones threatening to overthrow our government. But the RW, some who are high up in the Republican Party, have made veiled threats against our form of government, ie democracy when democracy does not go their way.

        Do you really want to be disarmed should they decide to make good on threat?

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

        by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 08:28:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Armed Citizens (0+ / 0-)

          Are the threat, not the defense.  The last time the United States government was threatened, it was by armed citizens in the civil war.  Current RW threats come from armed citizens, and their threats of civil war are based on armed citizens.

          Salvador Allende's government was defeated by the CIA.  I don't oppose resisting foreign powers, but that's not what we have armed citizens for.  The crisis that facilitated his downfall was organized by domestic paramilitary groups - armed citizens.  Though affiliated with elements of the military, the military primarily resisted them.

          Armed citizens threaten governments, including this one.  

        •  Yes. When they make good on the threat, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye

          I want the military to pink mist them with a drone.

          •  Agree 100% (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kalmoth, sensetolisten

            but I also want to be able to defend myself and my home.

            Many of these nuts live around me here in Texas.

            Some are Sheriffs and Sheriff's Deps. Every time I hear their nonsense, I quietly reply that they are not the only one's with 2nd Amendment rights.

            Shuts them up right quick.

            They are mostly coward's and bullies and are not prepared for that response to all their bluster.

            WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

            by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 09:02:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Boy have I had some guns pulled on me by police in (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JayRaye

              Teaxs (where do you guys get those Rangers, god their all massive). All I can say is that if you talk back at a time like that, you're a better man than I am.

              There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

              by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 02:29:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I NEVER talk back to cops when they stop me. (0+ / 0-)

                But I've had occasion to talk to some right wing law enforcers on a social basis, & there is no reason to let their RW shit go unchallenged then.

                (PS I'm a woman.)

                WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Dec: Life so cheap; property so sacred.

                by JayRaye on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 03:03:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, but if you can do what you're doing in Texas (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JayRaye

                  of all places, you might still have bigger cajones than I do. In alot of ways, the scariest place in the country in my opinion.

                  There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                  by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 09:05:56 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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