Skip to main content

View Diary: First order of business on gun legislation: bridging the Democratic divide on content and tactics (131 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  So are a lot of people (8+ / 0-)

    And if you look to the comment I made downthread, these are the kinds of comments that folks see and believe portends a lot more restrictions coming down the pipeline.

    I'm starting to believe that too, honestly.

    I've seen enough people here say the 2nd Amendment should be repealed that I see that my own views solidify in response and have to keep checking in with myself ethically. I can't imagine what this feels like for others; it's a pretty intense reaction, particularly because I really do not trust our police force to maintain law and order whatsoever and to not abuse power due to what I, myself, have seen and known to be true about California's law enforcement. And I'm pretty level-headed !

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 09:04:42 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I would also add that I'm white, female, and (11+ / 0-)

      reasonably privileged when it comes to law enforcement. I think we've had very, very little conversation about how non-white people feel about this whole issue, particularly those who live in rural areas.

      I would like to hear more from these folks, personally.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 09:10:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it doesn't work (4+ / 0-)

      for all the guns to go unless they also go from the police and from the military. All the guns are going to go, from everybody.

      •  I agree that this is part of why (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fuzzyguy, high uintas, aitchdee

        it's such a schism in California: our cops are more armed than most, and they're also pretty much the more conservative, more racist (I feel like I can say that since I've known so many, laugh...)

        I don't think that the military and police will be disarmed anytime soon.

        If they were, then I think that many more people would be less wary.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 09:42:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's a very good reason to overhaul California's (0+ / 0-)

      law enforcement.

      But the upward trend in US population density and land development is ultimately responsible for the rising need to replace "rural" attitudes on guns with "urban" ones. Guns are fine when you live alone in your valley; they are not so fine if any shot you fire will hit a neighbor. We live increasingly in the latter sort of society, and gun control is inevitable.

      •  You have to make that case though to the (3+ / 0-)

        20% of Americans who live in census-designated rural areas. That's a significant demographic. While there has been a shift to increasing urbanization and gentrification, and while I've lived both in a wide number of places -- rural, urban, metropolitan, and suburban, plus the wilderness outright -- as well as in numerous different states with very different attitudes, the ultimate idea that everyone will move away from rural areas and to urban ones is not realistic, and also, not necessarily preferable. After having lived in all of these sorts of places, I most prefer living in rural or wilderness-type areas and  know plenty of others feel the same way (although I have a weakness for a few cities here and there -- and love to visit big cities in general).

        If there is one thing I strongly believe, it's that we must be fair and equal in thinking through American beliefs, and we must give voice to those who are minorities, particularly large minorities like the 1/5 people who do live in census-designated rural areas. California itself has a "frontier" designation for several counties as well, which is a step up from rural and more like "wilderness." You'll find towns and cities in rural counties though. Humboldt County is undeniably largely rural, for example, but outside of Eureka, it's wilderness.

        It's just not right and not fair to say that what works for those who live in cities works for those who live in mountains, forests, agricultural lands, bayous, prairies, deserts, and so forth. All voices need consideration. I stand firmly by that. And in California, many of these particular voices are liberal ones, so I really don't think it's appropriate to overlook these points of view whatsoever. On the same note, I wouldn't overlook those in urban spaces or metropolitan regions: my experience living in a barrio was interesting, as was living in New York City; the concerns of my neighbors in an 80% Latino district in California vs. those in Greenwich Village vs. those in a Jewish suburb of New York vs. those of indigenous Hawaiians in the jungle there are wildly different in regard to guns -- thus a national conversation must include all, not some.  

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 12:59:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The problem is that the 20% have been dictating (0+ / 0-)

          policy to the 80%. That has got to stop.

          And frankly, they won't be 20% for very long. About 50% of this country was still rural when I was a kid.

          •  I'm just going to have to disagree (3+ / 0-)

            that a significant voice of liberals in rural America (and this includes a large section not only of a white population, but also indigenous people, African-Americans in the South, and Latinos who work in agricultural zones) should in any way not be considered.

            It's really too silly to argue that some liberals views are less important than others. That way, danger lies as do all forms of cultural hegemony.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 01:14:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is no reason why their "voice" should force (0+ / 0-)

              me to be in danger of stray bullets coming through my thin urban apartment walls.

              And if the 2nd amendment is the "reason", then, yes -- repeal it.

              •  We're not going to be able to talk (3+ / 0-)

                if you remain in your apartment, and I remain in my own bubble either.

                So I say I've said an ample amount here and have really expressed all my views pretty well here. If you have any questions, I'm glad to respond although I'm about to start work. Beyond that, it's seems that this conversation is exactly what I'm trying to say is a problem: people cannot refuse to put themselves in the shoes of another. Also, I don't feel like your response really addressed the profound issue of cultural hegemony when some significant number of liberal voices are not addressed. To me, this is the justification for many forms of majority tyranny which are truly unsavory.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 01:22:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well I've never owned a car (0+ / 0-)

                  and can't afford to jet around on my SSDI, so I'm afraid the only way I get out is by public transportation or by Internet. I currently live in a dense urban area in SoCal. I used to live in a dense urban area in NorCal (San Jose). I grew up in a dense urban area in the midwest (Chicago).

                  Personally, I'm tired of the cultural hegemony of macho American cowboy culture, and I would love to see it replaced by a more European culture.

                  •  I'm not talking about macho American cowboy (3+ / 0-)

                    culture. I'm talking about liberals who live in rural places, especially California. I'm talking about Latino farm workers. I'm talking about indigenous Americans who live on reservations and in other areas that are designated as wilderness zones, such as Native Americans, Native Hawaiians, and Alaskan Natives. And I'm talking about the very extensive network of rural black Southerners as well.

                    None of these are part of "macho American cowboy culture" at all.

                    None are probably going to embrace a more European culture either. That is nothing short of a colonial attitude, really. I personally love Europe and prefer it to the U.S. in many ways. But I don't think we can talk about replacing one culture with another when there are already many strong cultures here, such as those which I've just mentioned, and to which many more could clearly be added.

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 01:38:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again, I simply want to be able to control guns (0+ / 0-)

                      where I live -- and where most other Americans live. I don't care if people who live in places where hunting is viable have hunting rifles.

                      But I don't see why even people in Montana or rural California need to amass huge caches of military weapons. And yes, the country as a whole can decide to prohibit that.

      •  Also, I have been fighting to overhaul (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon

        California's law enforcement for ages.

        I've never seen any significant reforms.

        I would say Oakland's been plagued by about the same sorts of problems since the 1960's/70's, for example, with police brutality.

        If anything, I've just seen more brutality and more militarism and more surveillance. Cops have tanks, wear combat gear, have helicopters, all sorts of weapons, paddywagons, and are eager to adopt the use now of unmanned drones.

        Yes. Unmanned drones for law enforcement.

        Many California counties spend 1/3rd of their general funds on the police force.

        It's not really going to work to say, "We're curtailing civilian gun ownership in x,y,z ways" while giving more and more weapons and tactical gear to a pretty lawless police force.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 01:09:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That too is mainly driven by racism (0+ / 0-)

          We need a serious "populist" movement to de-pigify the police in this state, just as we need one to end the "war on drugs".

          •  Agreed although populists aren't really (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon

            the driving force behind California's Criminal justice reform efforts that I've noticed: most of this has been spearheaded by a coalition of groups ranging from the Black Panthers, the UFW, the Brown Berets, Socialists and Marxists of different stripes, some Progressives who have been empathetic and gotten on board here and there, and groups like the ACLU and NAMI or the Ella Baker Center for Civil Rights. I haven't noticed much of the kind of Populist movement in California as I have in some states, and definitely not one which has said much in regard to law enforcement problems?

            If they'd like to join in, great. As a Socialist, I believe in coalition-building.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 01:17:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site