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  •  There was this report (82+ / 0-)

    just this week of a Cleveland woman calling 911 because she heard shots fired and bullets were coming into her home.

    The police comes and they inspect her house, sees the bullet holes and then while they are walking about, they hear gun shots again.  They call back up.  The woman gets back on the phone with 911.  

    The second round of shots took out her microwave in her kitchen, just where she and her daughter were once standing moments before.

    The police follows the sounds and then comes across a couple of dudes drinking in their back yard, shooting off with AK-47s at paper targets aimed close to the ground.

    The problem with that is that the bullets were being deflected off the ground and into their neighbors' kitchen 500 yards away.

    If gun advocates aren't at least willing to discuss responsible gun safety, training and use, then what's the point here?

    If the NRA wasn't so hell bent on blocking the attempts on logging stats, they would probably know by now just how many deaths, injuries and damage are attributable to improper and unsafe gun use and storage.

    Not to mention the number of gun deaths as a result of domestic violence and non-criminal confrontations.

    What I know and all I need to know is that there are a LOT of irresponsible Americans who claim that they are responsible and sane enough to handle guns.

    They are not.

    •  I am pretty sure everyone (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BobTheHappyDinosaur

      including "gun nuts" are for better safety training.  Your example has happened and will continue to happen for the rest of eternity unfortunetly.  It has nothing to do with the style of gun they were using and I highly doubt they were using a true AK-47 as they are extremely expensive and highly regulated.  My guess is that they were using a standard semi-auto that "looked" like an AK.  Furthermore, the same thing can and will happen with a standard bolt-action long rifle.

      One should never fire a rifle in a direction of people or houses as bullets can travel well over 1,000 yards.  That of course is something you should be educated on before your 10 in my mind.  I sure wouldn't have let my boys deer hunt at 12 if they weren't thoroughly educated on gun safety.  Hell, I take my oldest who is 13 coyote hunting and he in fact uses an AR-15 style rifle safely.

      •  Don't be so sure (33+ / 0-)

        It is their Constitutional right (if not God given) to own a gun, and Uncle Bubba's lessons on proper gun use is all they need to know, thank you very much. And who cares if it wasn't a true AK47, isn't that beside the point? As to you teaching your 12 year old gun safety does not infer that it is standard practice. Regulation insures it.
        And I really don't see why there is not a regulation that firearms of any sort can not be operated under the influence of alcohol (or other impairing drug) and have the same stringent, enforceable consequences just like they do when operating a motor vehicle.

        "I got a rock"-Charlie Brown

        by eashep on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 10:37:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I really don't care that you (27+ / 0-)

        doubt the caliber of the weapons involved -- I heard the news report and that's what they said.  I guess you can take it up with the AP or whoever.  

        That wasn't my point.  My point was about responsible gun owner and safety, period.  This shouldn't really be a point of debate.

        •  Now if I were a grand Qubar... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Beetwasher, indie17, Phil S 33, elginblt

          I would let Americans own whatever guns they wished, but the type of weapon, number of weapons owned and bullets desired would be certified.

          You would have to be a certified, licensed gun owner and the certification and the COST of the license would go up and up and UP with the type and number of weapons one desired to own.

          Oh and that would include in some cases, certified training, mandatory safety storage (determined by the government), a sign off from your doctor that you aren't on any psychotropic drugs or drugs that would impair one's mental state, no record of domestic violence, no convicted felons.  

          Also, if you are the principal care provider or have living with you children under 18 or any individual of any age who has been diagnosed with mental issues or are who are taking psychotropic drugs, you would be subjected to special safety storage requirements as deemed by the government.

          And you would have to take a test to demonstrate knowledge of the weapon you wish to own, as well as gun safety.

          •  And.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bisbonian

            Stiff gun insurance to cover what may happen should the gun be used for anything other than the intended target practice/hunting use.

            I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't even ask!

            by Lilyvt on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 06:54:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Most of your ideas (0+ / 0-)

            would be unconstitutional however.  You can't mandate someone spends money on certification simply to own a firearm.  That would be like saying we need to charge anyone who wants to vote a $100 certification fee.

            Poll taxes have always been wrong.  Same here.

        •  I understand where you are coming from... (11+ / 0-)

          ...and, to an extent, you are right. But from a utilitarian point of view, that is, winning the debate, it helps to know and use correct terminology. It doesn't require that you have the expertise of those of who do know guns and have been around them all our lives. But think about how factual somebody's errors made on another subject—health care, chained-CPI, energy issues—affects your willingness to listen to that person when they are making the case for policy changes.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 11:09:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is, if one is interested in (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Beetwasher, JoanMar, Bisbonian

            winning a debate.  On this matter, as with most issues around here, I state my opinion.  I have no problems with folk agreeing or disagreeing with it.

            As for the correct 'terminology' being used in discussions, at least for me, I use what the media is using.  Now if that is incorrect, then clearly we have a problem with media's dissertation of information here.

            Lastly, if you are in a position of being a policy advocate, then I would expect that person to have more than a basic level of knowledge on the subject matter.

          •  It's Not About Winning The Debate, It's About (8+ / 0-)

            Forming and opinion and engaging.

            I don't need to know any minutiae in order to know that weapons need to be regulated and controlled in a much better fashion.

            That doesn't mean I'm discouraging learning as much as you can, however, the gun enthusiasts don't get to set the terms as to the minimal amount required to engage in the discussion or form an opinion on whether we need better, stronger regulation.

            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

            by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 11:27:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What I believe—having been long... (17+ / 0-)

              ...successfully engaged in the persuasive end of changing people's minds over a wide range of policies—is that those who do not have an understanding of the basics in a subject, including what existing policy is, weaken the chances that a given policy will change.

              I am not saying anybody needs to understand minutiae. I agree, and have long done so, that gun restrictions need to be tighter.

              But if someone argues, for example, that a particular kind of firearm should be banned because there is no reasonable need for civilians to own one without knowing enough about firearms to realize that the ban being suggested will eliminate a bunch of other guns that have reasonable civilian uses, then getting the policy results that we all want—a reduction in gun-related violence—is likely to fail.

              In short, I am arguing that changing minds and getting the votes needed for change is partly a matter of having an adequate grasp of what you (the generic you, not you personally) are talking about.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 11:52:13 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, Getting The Votes (7+ / 0-)

                You need, means getting your message out simply to as many people as you can and getting them motivated to engage. It's messaging, not necessarily education. Education is good, but NOT necessary to effect change and get moving in the direction you want.

                The fact of the matter is, that you happen to know the differences between this and that gun will not persuade all that many people to anything. Legislators working on the regulations should know, but it's not necessary for the public in order to form an opinion.

                This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 12:10:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Are there people not aware about Sandy Hook (5+ / 0-)

                  on this site?

                  Off of this site?

                  The U.S. is certainly aware of this which really is the ultimate simple illustration of the situation, as you are advocating for in your above comment, and yet this has not fully persuaded some yet; I would suggest these people need something else to persuade their views whether that seems right, wrong, silly, tedious, or anything like that. It is, however, something which needs to happen if anyone would like to reach anyone not yet persuaded to alter our gun laws.

                  If you think the resistance is strong on a Left-Progressive website, you should see what it's like in general, or within other spheres entirely. One must be able to speak to many people to convince them, and let me assure you that talking to this site is literally like playing softball on this issue.  

                  Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                  by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 02:19:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, Public Opinion Is Overwhelmingly On Our (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ginny in CO

                    Side on this. Who else do we need to convince with the minutiae that so many seem so enamored of? I submit that there aren't very many people who are going to be convinced one way or another at this point, and educating them about the minute details about gun mechanics would have no relevance in convincing anyone at this point.  If Sandy Hook couldn't convince someone that there is need for more gun control, how would educating them about the differences and similarities between certain types of guns do the trick?

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 04:13:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So what's the point of this diary then (4+ / 0-)

                      if you feel like everyone already agrees with you?

                      I'm being sincere. What is this diary's specific purpose?

                      Writing obviously has many purposes. Maybe I have misunderstood yours, as has Meteor Blades? Both of us presumed you wanted to persuade or educate others. But you say this is not possible.

                      So what instead were you hoping to accomplish in writing this?

                      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 05:14:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Sometimes You Educate Allies on the Dishonest (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Ginny in CO

                        Tactics of your adversaries, and how to better and more effectively frame your position for mass consumption.

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 05:42:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why do you need to frame this for (4+ / 0-)

                          mass consumption if, as you say, everyone already agrees with you?

                          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 05:58:08 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Where Did I Say Everyone Already Agrees With Me? (0+ / 0-)

                            But many who do agree, may not be aware of the dishonesty of the tactics being employed. This diary simplifies the matter, so that those who do agree are aware of the dishonest tactic and are prepared to rhetorically deal with said dishonest tactic when engaged in the ongoing debate.  And while I believe that educating people on minutiae would.be inneffective in convincing anyone still undecided on the matter, the simplistic message I propose just might be a concise, effective rhetorical device that cuts through the dishonest bullshit.

                            Frankly MO, your continued mischaracterizations of my positions is unbecoming and dissappointing as is your updating of comments by obvious shit stirrers.  I had thought better of you.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 06:14:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Three comments of yours upthread (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            phrogge prince, PavePusher, annieli

                            Anyone reading this can see this plainly as day:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            And I cannot control who uprates me, but I've noticed Meteor Blades has, so if you're calling him a "shit-stirrer," you may just want to walk that one back, good grief.

                            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 06:49:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Those posts said no such thing (0+ / 0-)

                            Really, very dissapointing to see this from you.  And I said YOU uprated comments by obvious shit stirrers, not that they uprated you.

                            And I don't care to dig them out for you, really not worth my effort, bit I did notice it and its really a shame.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 06:59:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've uprated about 1,000 comments today (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher, annieli

                            so you might not have liked them all, sorry. I think they were pretty evenly distributed, and I do tend to rec just about everything I read unless I starkly disagree with it as a way to say "Hi, I read this."

                            I like this site and its members. Even when I disagree with people, I do tend to try to delegate recs to many just to let them know I respect hearing from them.

                            I would appreciate it, however, if you would stop casting aspersions toward me: this is the third time today which you've done this. I have not reciprocated in kind nor will I.

                            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 07:04:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What Aspersion? (0+ / 0-)

                            I find mischaracterizations and misrepresentations of my positions to be just as insulting as any aspersions you believe I've levelled.  You've put words in my mouth I've never uttered and insinuated I'm being willfully ignorant.  Those types of aspersions?

                            Perhaps you should read posts you uprate more carefully, you've supported some doozys today.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 07:23:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  This sounds uncomfortbly close (0+ / 0-)

                  to the Fox News style of operation to me.

                  Well, except for the education is good part.

                •  I think the problem is (0+ / 0-)

                  when someone talks about guns that are already highly regulated like actual assault rifles not the fake "assault rifles".  Saying someone was drunk shooting their AK-47 is a clear nonesense statement.  A true AK-47 is full auto, highly regulated, almost impossible to get, and extremely expensive to purchase.  There are almost none in circulation in the USA.

                  To demand we ban them is laughable because they almost are already.  To demand a ban on semi-auto rifles however is much more problematic as most are used for hunting and target shooting by law abiding people.

                  •  We're Leaving You in the Dust and Ignoring You (0+ / 0-)

                    We see there is a problem, we're going to fix it without you and your circular, dissembling nonsense.

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 07:26:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No you aren't (0+ / 0-)

                      You see a political opportunity.  Making nonesense laws up that allow most of the guns that actually hurt and kill people perfectly legal while striping hunters and range shooters of some of our favorite guns is simply a gun grab.  It won't even dent gun violence so your "problem" is really just made up.

      •  It was an AK (11+ / 0-)

        Homes in Ohio neighborhood sprayed with bullets after two men allegedly take part in a backyard drunk target practice with an AK-47 and three other guns

        Police in Ohio have arrested two men for accidentally shooting up several homes in their rural neighborhood after the clownish pair decided to take target practice in their backyard with an AK-47 and some suds.

        Bullets tore through several homes in Montville, Ohio, about 40 miles east of Cleveland, Wednesday afternoon, prompting several residents of the quiet town to frantically call 911 to report that their homes were being shot at.

        After a brief search for the source of the gunfire, authorities eventually located and arrested Mark Bornino, 53, and R. Daniel Volpone, 45, who were found in a nearby backyard with an assault rifle, three other guns, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and alcohol.

        Officers confronted the men, ordered them to the ground and took them to into custody. Both men are being held at the Montville Jail until the appropriate charges are filed. While target practice is legal in Montville Township and both men passed background checks, the pair had been consuming alcohol, police said, and were likely to face felony charges related to drinking while handling weapons.

         Officers seized one AK-47 rifle with 628 rounds of ammunition, one 9-mm handgun with 50 rounds of ammunition, one .380 handgun with eight rounds of ammunition and one .22 revolver with 40 rounds of ammunition.

        The men may also face felony charges related to failing to operate the guns safely because they did not use a proper backstop for target practice, according to police.

      •  Articles and pictures of the weapons here: (7+ / 0-)

        http://www.nydailynews.com/...

        http://medinagazette.northcoastnow.com/...

        Police arrested Bornino and Volpone and seized the AK-47 rifle, two high-capacity magazines, and three handguns: a 9 mm, 380-caliber and 22-caliber pistols.  

        Also seized were 628 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition for the AK-47, and about 100 cartridges for the pistols.

        Sarah Weber, 37, a neighbor of Kuruc, said her family didn’t hear the first volley of shots. When police arrived, she and her two children, ages 3 and 6, began to panic.

         

        The truth always matters.

        by texasmom on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 01:05:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I actually read this stuff, Police charged AK 47 (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bisbonian, SwedishJewfish

        Two men charged with firing AK-47's into houses while target-practicing

        The headline is misleading - there was only one AK-47.

        MONTVILLE, Ohio – Two men were charged today with the improper discharge of a firearm after bullets from their AK-47 struck nearby homes while target shooting.

        Mark Bornino, 53, of Medina, and R. Daniel Volpone, 45, of Parma, may face additional charges from the Medina County Prosecutor's office. They were arrested Wednesday afternoon when Montville police interrupted them while target shooting with an AK-47 and other firearms on Bornino's backyard in the 5500 block of Windfall Road.

        Police responded at 2:19 p.m. to complaints from neighbors about hearing rapid gunfire and bullets hitting their homes.

        While police talked to neighbors, they heard the sound of rapid gunfire. Sgt. Matthew Neil and other police officers searched for the source and finally found two men at with multiple weapons in Bornino's yard.

        I am willing to believe the Montville police are capable of identifying an AK-47, and the press (there were many other reports on this) is capable of correctly transcribing police reports and press releases. All the more since this so critically exposes to the hot national debate, the reality of having this type of weapon in the hands of citizens. (Headline writers are well established to be incompetent.) Check out the pic in the link. The neighborhood the shooters were in appears upper middle class, the area of the home hit is higher. (Couldn't find the videos showing the interior of it.)
         My guess is that they were using a standard semi-auto that "looked" like an AK. Furthermore, the same thing can and will happen with a standard bolt-action long rifle.
        Given that the gun was an AK-47, not a look alike, is the second statement true? The same thing - the bullets went through the house and one ricocheted off several more places before stopping. The scary one was fired while the officers were searching the area for the shooters. Went into a microwave at head height, where the owner and daughter had been standing not long before.

        I sold my Remington 30-06 after Columbine. It had a clip that held 4 bullets. (Which someone stole when looking at the gun in the store I sold it through.) My understanding is the 'high powered' assault weapons can fire much more powerful bullets, that have more explosive material and some with tips being loaded or formed to cause more damage on impact than standard ammo. We never had any reason to use high power ammo because we were hunting for low fat, no antibiotic or other chemicals meat. In AK, those big animals were all over, on public land. CO, not so much.

        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

        by Ginny in CO on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 12:21:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ummm, seriously? (0+ / 0-)
          My understanding is the 'high powered' assault weapons can fire much more powerful bullets, that have more explosive material and some with tips being loaded or formed to cause more damage on impact than standard ammo. We never had any reason to use high power ammo because we were hunting for low fat, no antibiotic or other chemicals meat. In AK, those big animals were all over, on public land. CO, not so much.
          Did I miss a snark indicator, or are you really this mal-informed?
          •  Trying to be honest about info gaps (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish

            gets ridicule?  I have 2 degrees in BS + hyperfocused ADD. I follow a hell of a lot of fields, spend hours on the internet because all my life, the drug of choice has been knowledge.  There is only so much you can cram into an even above average IQ.  I am into my sixth decade and got to fall off the financial cliff, the health cliff and professional work cliff the past 4 years.  Not much good stuff going on in my life. Christmas eve I had to put down the 10 year old dog that was my emotional support animal. I didn't have the money for her vet bills and won't adopt another unless I can. Unlikely that will happen.

            I have posted my extensive experience with gun violence in several diaries. It includes almost killing both kids and myself due to SAD. Some things I don't particularly want to know. I had a fair amount of knowledge about ammo because my husband's family did a lot of loading. I've forgotten a lot. Haven't kept up with anything.

            Are you really so insensitive? There's a question that should be asked  before you hit Post - every time. I suggest writing it on a sticky and putting it on the monitor in a bright color. Change the sticky color about every 6 weeks so you don't ignore it.

            Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

            There are many people here who have far less knowledge and experience with guns than I do. You could have answered for them also.

            Educating and discussing complex issues should include the best words, not made up ones.

            "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

            by Ginny in CO on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 12:53:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" (0+ / 0-)

              That's exactly the point: what you posted (the part I quoted) wasn't true.

              And it was neccessary to point this out.

              IIRC, this stuff has been pointed out to you before.

              And someone just posted a diary about ignorance; you should read it.

        •  WHAT? (0+ / 0-)

          Your 30-06 is much more powerful than an AR-15.  It isn't even close.  One is a pea shooter and one is a brick shooter.  You can't be serious.

    •  don't know the weapon involved (0+ / 0-)

      but something similar happened to me in germany.  some kids in the high rise next door were messing around.

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 04:32:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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