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View Diary: The stunning fantasy of pro-gun Kossacks (872 comments)

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  •  I am a gun control supporter (21+ / 0-)

    Including every executive order and all the bills proposed by Obama.  That said, I have rarely seen so many diaries expressing the sentiment that an informed discussion of a subject does not require becoming informed on that subject. This would be true of health care just as much as it would be for guns.

    Sure, we all know we need better health care, preferably single payer.  But anyone who says we don't need to also understand basic health, basic accounting and how the specific law is written to have a real debate on the issue, frankly would laughed off of daily kos.  For example, the insurance mandate only makes sense in light of the larger bill, the inclusion of an end to pre-existing condition requirements and the need for younger healthier people to be part of the health care pool.

    So yeah, if you want to talk have a knowledgeable discussion of gun control, you need to learn something abut guns, real statistics about gun violence and the details of the gun control laws on the table.  I didn't know these things 2 months I spent time reading about them.  And you know what, I still support gun control, but I can see where folks are coming from when they say the gun control folks don't know what they are talking about.

    Do gun proponents try to shut shown conversation with spurious facts about guns? Sure. Is that any different than any subject, whether health care, environmental causes or whatever? No.  If we are to be a fact based community, at a minimum, we should at least celebrate facts, knowledge and reasoning.

    I mean seriously, when did diaries explicitly claiming that being informed on a subject is unimportant towards discussing that subject start getting written and recced.

    Sorry, if you want to engage in a serious discussion of gun control, you are actually gonna have to do your homework and learn about gun control. You also need to eat your vegetables and clean your room if you want to go out and play with your friends.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 02:46:35 PM PST

    •  Don't really disagree with you; but do we have to (6+ / 0-)

      really get into the super fine details about what the difference is about a "clip" and a "magazine"?  90% of those on here know exactly what we are talking about when referring to restricting it's size.....

      Yes, we DO need to be better educated on the matter---but let's not be sidetracked over some fine details.

    •  This diary doesn't claim that information is (6+ / 0-)

      unimportant.  It offers another dimension that adds to and corrects information presented elsewhere.  That's more knowledge.  This diarist disagreed with another one and he presented his information free of the drama that results when people are divided into two unequal classes. But there's nothing here that says knowledge and information are irrelevant to having an opinion on a topic.

      "Democracy is a life; and involves continual struggle." ---'Fighting Bob' LaFollette

      by leftreborn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 03:02:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's different discussions, though. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, FiredUpInCA, Kevskos, zinger99, Clues, LSmith

      (in a global/national context, that is.)

      On the one hand, you've got people who want to know specifically which of their favorite gadgets the rules will be changed on -- and on that side of the argument, you've also got some very loud anti-regulation, anti-Democratic, anti-Liberal (etc.) voices, not the least of which are apparently motivated by those who make money from selling those gadgets. And, not incidentally, there are those on this side of the argument who demonstratedly use the 'you've got to know the specifics!' topic as a way to derail any conversation about any other aspect of the discussion...

      On the other hand (not that there are necessarily only 2 here), you've got those who want people to stop being wounded and/or killed by those gadgets, which are designed to kill. The details of which gadget does what isn't as important as making sure that fewer (if any) of these gadgets are out there, available to kill people. It's a matter for the details of whoever's writing the legislation, which will almost certainly not involve the people chatting about it online.

      There's also the assumption, based on several decades experience, that whatever legislation (if any) even begins to be discussed seriously will be re-written to favor the "sell all the things!' crowd. So allowing the details of the discussion (which particular weapons/calibers/prefixes) to be set before the principles (let's make it hard -- or at least not so easy --  to kill lots of people, maybe) is giving the game away before it starts.

      •  Excellent comment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        There's also the problem that these definitions, history and excruciating details are being used as hoops one must jump through before the the NRA crowd will even begin a discussion.  So far it's been, "well..movies!  video games!  freedomz!", and when any talk of regulation starts to move forward, it's "You can't talk about that because you don't understand the history of muskets."  And then it's back to blaming movies and video games again.

        So let's talk about violence in video games.  (Which I believe to be a complete red herring)  If the president of the NRA wants to blame video games, then he first needs to understand what he's talking about, right?  He has no earthly idea about the latest video technology and which graphics engines are better at producing real-looking blood and gore, and the impact that 3D technology will have on the presentation of computer graphics.  In fact, he doesn't really know what a pixel is.  Therefore, he's not allowed to discuss it.

    •  Obama got almost 66 million votes in the last (5+ / 0-)

      election. Honestly, how many of them do you think were cast by folks who, under your standard were actually qualified enough to know the full difference?  I can guarantee you that the number of folks who toe the NRA line, and are "knowledgeable", far exceeds the number of "antis" who are such, but I know that they don't deserve to prevail.

      I don't understand anyone here advocating true "willful ignorance", and I simply don't believe that some exceptional level of expertise is required to understand enough about what is going on. I've been following this stuff for fifty years, and, after the second or third newspaper article the vast majority of everything else has been mere repetition/regurgitation.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 03:41:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wrong. (12+ / 0-)

      What is unnecessary is the ludicrous standards gun-cultists demand.

      One doesn't need to know the material of a seat belt in order to know it's better to buckle up.

      And yet gun cultists demand we know exact calibers. Exact fire-rates. Manufacture methods. On and on and on. Don't know the difference between a .50 and a .223? Oh, you don't get to talk. And all of it's tinged with condescension and derision.

      Its an attempt to intimidate. No more, no less. It's nasty, and I for one am not putting up that shit anymore.

      "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

      by nosleep4u on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 04:00:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Something about guns" is fine. (0+ / 0-)

      Irrelevant minutiae is not.

      Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

      by dov12348 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 04:56:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Empty (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99, LSmith

      What constitutes "serious?" Why does the conversation have to get to the granular level on make and manufacture. That's like saying you can't advocate for speed limit restrictions without knowing the make and model of every car which uses that particular stretch of highway.

      Nice try swaddling NRA memes in baby clothing but that shit won't really wash here right now.

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