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  •  I don't even know where to begin... (17+ / 0-)

    First of all, many of us in favor of restoring sanity in our gun laws are well aware of and want to address the other issues that contribute to gun violence. You seem to assume that naturally anyone who wants gun control simply wants it because they  intrinsically hate guns, and that's all they give a shit about. This argument is typical of what I deal with from conservatives, it is shocking to see it here (on the rec list?)

    I have been a legal gun owner for 7 years. Full disclosure though, I got rid of my gun after Sandy Hook. But I don't have some kind of inborn aversion to firearms, or gun-grabbing "fetish" that causes me to be like "Imma getcher gun!". I could give a shit if you own a gun, as long as you treat it like the deadly tool that it is, keep it out of the hands of children and away from homicidal maniacs.  

    This is diversionary tripe. This is yet another attempt to spin "the conversation" away from ANYTHING that has to do with guns. "Do you know you are 6 times more likely to commit suicide if you are on anti depressants" Do you know that you are put on anti depressants as a result of being DEPRESSED, and that DEPRESSION is the underlying disease that leads to suicide?

    Do you know that the majority of suicides are committed with firearms? Do you know that women are three times more likely than men to ATTEMPT suicide, but men die as from suicide at 4 times the rate-and that the major contributing factor to that disparity is that men are twice more likely to use a firearm?

    Do you know that the leading cause of death among young black men is murder? And that the majority of those murders are committed by guns? Do you know what it is like to lose ALL of your children to gun violence? As of last night, this woman does. I wonder what she would have to say about our "low violent crime rates".

    Do you know that at least 1,243 people have been killed by gun violence since Sandy Hook? And that over 90 of them have been children? Do you know that many abusive parents have guns in their home, and incorporate them into their abuse? That domestic abusers use the threat of violence as a way to keep their victims silent, and that hostile gun displays are one of the most common ways they do that? Do you know what it is like to be a sexually abused child kept in a state of perpetual terror because your abuser happens to have an arsenal of guns in his house, and makes it a point to shoot living creatures in front of you to prove that he's both willing and capable of ending lives? I do. Do you know what it is like to see your father put a gun to the stomach of his pregnant girlfriend? My 6 year old daughter does.

    Do you know that gun violence is a major contribute to urban poverty, because it drives small businesses and other forms of commerce out of effected communities? Do you know that entire communities and entire generations are traumatized by gun violence, and that children who grow up around it suffer from PTSD similar to what you find in combat veterans? Do you know this is one of the biggest reasons for the gaping achievement gap between black and white children? Do you know what it is like to try and raise, or teach, or mentor, or nurture a child who has no safe place in their community, who cannot concentrate on their homework because they keep getting interrupted by the sound of gunfire, who live in a state of perpetual fear because their homes where stray bullets go through their walls and windows?

    Have you ever heard a child say a sentence like this: "IF I grow up, I want to be a doctor". Not when, if. And when you correct them, they give you a blank stare-because they know better. They know making it to adulthood is far from a guarantee. They, more than anyone, know all about despair. They know about death. And they know what causes it. All you have to do is ask, and then listen.

    You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

    by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 08:16:11 AM PST

    •  That's all a good beginning. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SwedishJewfish, lyvwyr101

      That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

      by Inland on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 09:27:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the reply, the framing and perspective (9+ / 0-)

      is where we seem to diverge.

      I posit that inner city crime would plummet if we stopped the school to prison pipeline, ended the racist drug war, created living wage jobs by ending unfunded resource wars then our children in inner cities could grow up to become doctors.  The drug war has generationally destroyed the African American family.  This destruction was caused by policies out of DC.

      When we look at the % change, it reveals this:
       From 1980 to 2009, the change is 78% higher.
      Looking at Race, the numbers speak for themselves:

      "The most alarming news lurking within these figures is that there are now 2.7 million minor children (under age 18) with a parent behind bars. (See Figure 9.) Put more starkly, 1 in every 28 children in the United States — more than 3.6 percent — now has a parent in jail or prison. Just 25 years ago, the figure was only 1 in 125.
      "For black children, incarceration is an especially common family circumstance. More than 1 in 9 black children has a parent in prison or jail, a rate that has more than quadrupled in the past 25 years. (See Figure 10.)
      "Because far more men than women are behind bars, most children with an incarcerated parent are missing their father.37 For example, more than 10 percent of African American children have an incarcerated father, and 1 percent have an incarcerated mother."

      The gun didn't do this. Banning or restricting the gun won't fix it.

      So, we must politely disagree here.  

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 09:29:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just don't see how you can deny (4+ / 0-)

        that guns are a huge part of the problem. The flood of guns into poor, urban communities increases the rate of crime. It increases the lethality of assaults, and the level of violence children are exposed to from a very young age. The fear this creates is one of the major reasons that young people in these communities join gangs-they offer a degree of protection. Boys who don't have fathers are also more susceptible to be "groomed" by gang leaders, because the gang fills a void that has been created by those absent fathers.

        There is no way to substantially cut down the incarceration rate without doing something about guns. Ending the war on drugs is a good start, but most inner city crime isn't related to drugs. We absolutely need to provide more opportunities and living wage jobs in these communities-but it is very difficult, if not impossible, to sustain a prosperous economy in a community plagued by violence.

        There is only one model that has been proven effective at substantially reducing inner city violence-it is called "Operation Ceasefire". It combines strong, and consistent deterrents against gun possession and violent gang activity with community-based intervention strategies, outreach and support, and economic opportunities. It works.  This documentary shows what it looks like in action. Also see this article.

        I don't see how anyone can argue with strategies that have been proven effective and actually save lives. I also don't understand why we, as progressives, aren't screaming about this from the rooftops. It should be at the forefront of ANY national discussion of gun violence.

        You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

        by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 01:35:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Take a step back from your very valid points (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, 43north, VectorScalar

          and tell me how did those young boys become fatherless?

          The Racist Drug War.

          Why are there gangs garnering power, weapons and cash?

          The Racist Drug War.

          What motivates these young kids into drugs?

          Lack of living wage jobs.

          Al Capone almost brought this nation to its knees, how'd he do that again?

          The other model that proved effective, Ending Prohibition.

          How do we restore the families our government destroyed?  Repeal and modify drug laws, release all non-violent drug offenders.  Educate and retrain them, show them how to live their lives in peace and prosperity.

          Pay them like we do football players to help rebuild our inner cities, infrastructure and give them a reason to be part of this society again, as free men, not criminals.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 03:41:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not really... (5+ / 0-)

            You should read the article I linked to. Or spend time talking to the people who this affects directly. Drugs are an issue, but not to the extent you seem to think.

            "Another story is that it's all about drugs," Kennedy says, "and that's not true either." While most gang members do participate in the drug trade, the popular image of Crips and Bloods battling for crack-dealing turf is as outdated as the movie Colors. Nor, in Kennedy's view, is gang violence a sickness somehow endemic to ghetto culture—"because almost everybody in these neighborhoods doesn't participate. Hardly anybody goes this way." In Boston, Kennedy found that even within the most gang-dominated neighborhoods, fewer than 5 percent of young men were gang members. A 2004 outburst of gang killings in San Francisco produced a similar finding: Only about 100 young men in the entire city were thought to be truly dangerous, and a couple dozen were thought to have done most of the killing. "But because almost everybody deals with one or another of those fictions," Kennedy says, "it's very hard to engage with what's really going on."
            What's really going on, in Kennedy's view, is small groups of young men encouraging each other to violence. "It's about respect," he says. "It's about boy-girl stuff, it's Hatfield and McCoy." This, too, is nearly uni-versal among people on the front lines, from Sherrills to T. Rodgers to former police captain Rick Bruce in San Francisco's notorious Hunters Point neighborhood: Gang killings are not about huge, hierarchical cri-minal organizations struggling for control of drug-dealing turf. They're about beefs. They're about patterned webs of vendettas and retaliations. Somebody looks at somebody wrong, or two guys want the same girl, and it's on. In San Francisco, for example, nearly 20 tit-for-tat homicides over the past decade have been traced back to a single car auction, after which a gangster killed a man who outbid him for a vehicle. "You have to keep in mind," says T. Rodgers, "that between the ages of 11 and 17 they're warriors untried. From 17 to 21, it's 'What's your claim to fame? I can impregnate every girl on the block. Or I can knock you out with a right or a left.'" It's what University of California-Irvine criminologist George Tita calls "expressive violence rather than instrumental violence." Tita says that even among gangs that are involved in the drug trade—and most are, in some way or other—the leaders will gladly negotiate trade agreements with one another even as their foot soldiers murder each other over petty slights, because strict street codes dictate a violent response to nearly any perceived insult and every individual is terrified of falling short of those codes. But because group psychology, among a relatively small number of young men, is the clear engine of an enormous percentage of urban violence, it's a perfect point of intervention.
            Again, this is coming from someone who has dedicated his entire career to studying urban violence, and the architect of the ONLY crime intervention program that has actually produced results.

            You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

            by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 04:32:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think there's a link (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SwedishJewfish, gerrilea

              The destruction of the family unit, does subject young people to influences - "foster parenting" - by less than socially accepted role models.

              I'm not in-favor of easy access to firearms by youth, at all.
              Training, adult supervision, and an understanding that there's no walking away from pulling a trigger.

              In Bridgeport, I saw the destruction of low wage jobs, held by two parents, raising their families.  Bridgeport became a poster child for what went wrong in formerly industrialized small cities.
              The jobs left, as it was cheaper to either fold up the tent and move production offshore, or just plain quit - as the profit margins were too low for investment in modernization to comply with OSHA and EPA regulations.
              No jobs, retail flight, urban decay, failing schools, violent neighborhoods and projects.  Drugs were the new industry.

              I didn't click your links, as I'm familiar with Operation Ceasefire.  
              Structure, incentive, education, hope, a future.
              Much as we've discussed in our other comments here today.
              It comes to ending the perceived NEED for a gun.
              Making them less available to the worst actors, by improving and enforcing the NICS background check will twist the handle on the supply faucet.
              I'm heartened by your discourse, that PROGRAMS such as Operation Ceasefire, and not "meaningful legislation" is of greatest good.

              If Dianne Feinstein wants to do something substantial?
              Fix the mental health care system.
              Get the NRA to sign-onto single-payer mental health coverage.  Relax the magazine capacity ban in return for passage of the single-payer mental health care and reporting provisions.
              Max Baucus will shit, reason-enough right there.

              Fix the data reporting, and the "if we get around to it" aspect of States filing reports to the NICS database.

              Enact a doubling of the excise taxes on sales of guns and ammunition, and fund programs such as Operation Ceasefire.

              End the War on Drugs, and do as Portugal.  
              Treat it as an addiction, not a income stream benefitting the for-profit prison system.

              Ban rifle magazines over 30 rounds, handgun magazines over 15 rounds.  It's low hanging fruit.  1/100th of a percent of gun owners will insist that's just wrong.
              As stated above, make it a quid pro quo with the NRA.

              Another benefit:
              It's not going to fund the gunmakers, when the new law requires gun owners to purchase 100,000 five and ten-round magazines @ $20-$60 each, for bits of metal and plastic.
              Gun magazines are like floor mats for your new car. 90% pure profit for the auto company and dealership.

              Change the provisions of the GCA '68 from "felons" to "persons convicted of a crime of violence".
              I'm not worried about the accountant, pot grower, nor tax cheat.

              I am worried about the person who's evaded felony conviction, but has misdemeanor convictions for crimes of violence.  We've done it for misdemeanor crimes of Domestic Violence, and it's working.

              Look for the patterns, leading to violence and homicide.  Prohibit firearms possession by those people inclined to put their hands on others, and we'll do a better job of protecting our citizens.

              •  Wow, I finally understand your position more (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                than I ever have.  This makes sense and would do the most to help us all move beyond the destruction we created.

                Thank you.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 10:37:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  thank SwedishJewfish for prying it out (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea, Otteray Scribe

                  Tip O'Neill would be the first to make a deal which accomplished an "impossible" goal.
                  I believe we can accomplish something of real value in single-payer mental health care coverage, protect many suicidal people already under diagnosis from obtaining firearms at retailers, and lessen the chances of another mass shooting by a person with known psychosis.
                  The NRA has spendable political capital, and would get a quid pro quo in return.

                  I'd hold the line on comprehensive use of the NICS, and bans on extended capacity magazines.

                  Get those two things done, and we're further down the road than ever-before possible.

                  Double the gun and ammo taxes, and fund alternative to gangs outreach.  I hadn't thought of that until SwedishJewfish mentioned it.  It works better than sending a 16 year old to adult prison, so run with it.

                  I truly believe the "felons" in the GCA '68 was all about taking guns from persons of color, and had everything to do with the NOI, and BPP.
                  Doctor King was not shot with a military rifle, nor a "saturday night special".  But the GCA '68 was sold to the black community as necessary.  Do it for Medgar Evers, for Martin Luther King Jr..  Call your Congressman.

                  Since '68 we've taken guns from many "felons" who have never committed a violent act.  
                  While leaving those who do violence, and have the means and resources to avoid felony conviction, in-possession of firearms.
                  That's nuts.

                  That too should change, but I don't see it happening, as like the war on drugs, there are vested interests at work, keeping the status, quo.

                  •  The true puppet masters were recently revealed (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    for us, wasn't it?


                    We don't need a tax increase on end user products, hell seize their assets under current drug forfeiture laws and spread the wealth.

                    They have over $2.3 Trillion in assets and make $38 billion a year.

                    I really am all about Equity Under Law, you know.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 11:44:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Ah, media portrayal of violence as the best and (0+ / 0-)

              only solution to garner respect.  

              MTV and the violent laden lyrics.  In the debate of "nature v. nurture", nurture wins out every time.  Pavlov's dogs and I don't mean that to be derogatory.  We are what we see.  Children emulate what they see.

              I know this as a recovered alcoholic and the enabler syndrome.  Women seek out, unknowingly, men or relationships that are abusive because that's what life is supposed to be and vice-versa (not being sexist here) whom are raised in an alcoholic environment.

              Young men and women are being taught violence is cool and standard operating procedure for life in these United States.    

              Surprisingly for me, I've had this exact conversation with co-workers whom see this as well.  I rarely watch TV any more or even listen to the radio.  Older co-workers whom work with the younger "kids" being forced to listen to music talking about raping the girl, kill the bastard, etc etc.  

              The first step has to be to restore the family.  How do we get there? End the failed drug war.  Let the families heal and coalesce.  Let the family be the bridge and solution.  Make policies that enable this to occur.  Teach peace to our children in school.  Act and live that way.

              Violence is so easy.  The escalation of violence even easier.  It doesn't take a moments thought.  It doesn't take thought at all.  Teach our children to think again, not become "the worker of tomorrow", as is the current education model.  

              Until then we'll be chasing our tails.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 11:37:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  SwedishJewfish: Much said, well stated. (8+ / 0-)

      I'm going to assume you got rid of your gun on grounds of morality, and empathy with the families of Sandy Hook E.S.,
      as I'm reasonably assured you would comply with your comment:

      I could give a shit if you own a gun, as long as you treat it like the deadly tool that it is, keep it out of the hands of children and away from homicidal maniacs.  
      Did you surrender the gun, return it to a dealer, or transfer it to another person?  Questions of semantics.

      I'm cognizant of the effects of violence in the home, as I was raised in a violent home.  The gun was to my head, not my mothers.  She'd have enough, and would want to leave, he'd do the I'll kill you both, starting with me.
      Personally, I was up to taking that chance.  She wasn't.
      My thought was dead is better than this - an important point shared by others who despair.  See below re: inner city and suicide.

      My mother, had hopes for a life away, with me - starting fresh.  I couldn't see that as-coming to fruition, so the "go for it" attitude developed.  

      I'm cognizant of the effects of urban decay, retail flight, the inability to obtain services available to white, gentrified areas of a city, or suburb.

      You seem to assume that naturally anyone who wants gun control simply wants it because they  intrinsically hate guns, and that's all they give a shit about. This argument is typical of what I deal with from conservatives, it is shocking to see it here (on the rec list?)
      Many people do, SwedishJewfish.
      I know a good many people who believe that guns have some evil mojo, that the gun, and not underlying conditions, brings about the ills of society.
      "He was a good kid, until he got that damn gun."
      No, no he wasn't.  He beat his girlfriends, beat and stomped a cab driver for $48 in fares, did strong-arm robbery and purse snatching.  The car jacking landed him in jail, and the gun meant the next car jacking would have a body, not a witness.  The gun was a means to a murder, but the pattern, motivation and intent was there for a long time.

      Others see this as the issue:
      Massachusetts has crime, due to New Hampshire's guns.
      New York has crime, due to Florida's guns.
      New Jersey has crime, due to Virginia's guns.
      California's crime, is due to Arizona's guns.
      Mexico's crime is due to guns from Texas, and Arizona.

      Said to me years ago in NYC:
      Make gun licenses in those States as tough to get as a physician's license, and the crime in our States will evaporate.

      We're not the Swiss, we don't view criminal use or possession of a gun illegally as the high crime, it's something to plea down to.

      Attempted murder, possession of narcotics with intent to sell, and gun possession - can all be wrapped into one Felony Gun Possession charge, and it's all good on the 6:00pm news conference.  "Another Felony conviction by the DA's office."
      A sentence of 1 to 3 years, not 15 to 25.

      I'd like to see an approach where "bans" don't become the low-hanging fruit, picked, then sated.  Only to abandon the real work of changing how America, and Americans function as a society.  The hard work.  The costly, long, hard work.

      It's already illegal to have an unlicensed handgun in Chicago, NY, DC, Boston, LA.

      Yet young men die, as the idea is there's nothing to live long for.
      Die young, make a pretty corpse.
      Burn hot, burn up, don't rust.
      La Vida Loca baby...
      with the two finger gun, hand turned sideways.  pow-pow

      The problems of inner city life equal the problems of suicide.
      Lack of hope.  Despair.  No way out.  That's how I felt as a child.
      Lack of real opportunity.  Poverty, foreclosure, bankruptcy.
      Lack of feeling connected to society in a positive way.  Society is there to remind you you're nothing, you're a loser. You're a thug, you're a blight... and the best place for you is prison or a grave.

      I'm off to spend some quality time with my S.O. schoolteacher, and look forward to seeing your reply later today.

      •  I turned it in to law enforcement (8+ / 0-)

        I used to work in a health center the next town over from Newtown...some of those children were patients at the practice. My former co-worker lost her son. I have a daughter in first grade. Suffice it to say, this hit home. I just became disgusted and repulsed by my gun after that. I wanted to smash it into pieces with a sledge hammer, but there are laws against that.

        I also came to the realization that the gun was a crutch for me. I bought it for self protection, on the advice of a rape crisis counselor who thought it would help me feel empowered and more safe. It ended up having the opposite effect in a way-I got to the point where I couldn't leave me home without it. I was constantly going through scenarios in my head where I would have to use it to fend off a would-be rapist, and in the process I started to look at every man I came into contact with as a potential rapist. It escalated my sense of fear. Getting rid of it was one of the most therapeutic things I've ever done for myself.

        I am very sorry for what you had to go through as a child, by the way. I didn't have DV in my own home (the person who abused me was a family friend) but I was in a very abusive relationship for 4 years as an adult, so I know that kind despair very well...I know what it's like to have someone hold a gun to your head, and think "just go ahead and pull the trigger and get it over with". It's a very dark place, especially for a child.

        Anyways, to address a few of your points...

        It's already illegal to have an unlicensed handgun in Chicago, NY, DC, Boston, LA.

        Yet young men die, as the idea is there's nothing to live long for.

        This is true, but....

        D.C. Murder Rate For 2012 At 50-Year Low

        New York murder rate at lowest rate in 50 years

        L.A.'s Homicide Rate Lowest In Four Decades

        And surely you have heard of the Boston miracle?

        Now, Chicago is another story...but Chicago is also a bit of an outlier. Much of the violence in Chicago right now is due to some very complex issues in the social fabric of the city. The big issue is apparently the fact that most of the major gangs have been broken up, their leaders imprisoned-so now you have a lot of smaller, factionized groups or "cliques" that are battling each other for dominance. (This is, of course, on top of all the traditional problems of poverty and urban decay that Chicago has to deal with) As a result there is a holding pattern of murder and retaliation, a cycle that repeats itself endlessly. The traditional methods of violence prevention and gang intervention aren't working, because the majority of violence isn't related to gangs, it's inter-personal beef between individuals or small cliques. But guns are undeniably part of the equation in Chicago-because while gun laws are restrictive in Chicago, they are easy to circumvent and rarely prosecuted.

        There is no simple fix to this-not one law, or regulation, or action that will make a difference. And there is no law that will work for the entire country, because we are not monolithic- what works for Chicago isn't necessarily going to work in Oklahoma. And I doubt an outright ban would work anywhere.

        There are some things that would make an across the board difference though-universal background checks, better enforcement, better oversight by the ATF, and we desparately need to fund research. And from that research we can create policy that not only addresses the prolifieration of guns, but domestic violence, poverty, unemployment, and overall lack of opportunities in these communities. And yes, the prison industrial complex, the school to prison pipeline, all of that.

        I think most people here are in complete agreement with you on the need to address the underlying issues that create violence. Where I think we disagree is you don't seem to view the proliferation of guns in these communities as part of the see it as a symptom, rather than the disease, whereas I see it as a vector that spreads the virus, and makes it go from an outbreak to an epidemic.

        You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

        by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 11:38:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  good reply, as-expected (4+ / 0-)

          I can see your point on "needing" to have the gun, or you felt more vulnerable.
          I've taught firearms to assault survivors, and every person in those classes accepted or rejected firearms based on personal experience, desires, fears.

          When I carried as part of my employment, I'd be situationally aware, and yet willing to put myself into harm's way.
          Badge + gun = piss-off, or face the consequences.

          Now, I dial 9-1-1 and observe to see if I need to be in harm's way.  So far, the constabulary has taken a report, and that's that.  I do not feel burdened with the safety of others.  

          I expect you do as-capable a job of looking at all men as potential rapists without the gun.  
          Maybe better.
          That gut instinct, "I shouldn't be on this elevator" should never be dismissed.  All men are potential rapists, some women too.

          I agree with both points you made, regarding the overall crime rate, and Chicago's unique situation.

          The drop in violence you cite is noted, but debunked here, as an NRA/RWTP.  
          The Chicago PD saying gang violence is due to incarcerating leadership, and chaos theory taking hold, was also challenged as the musing of incompetent and corrupt cops, milking Rahm's Administration for all they can.

          The accepted DKos comment is: more guns ≠ less crime.
          More CCW permits = more crime.  How, why?
          Trayvon Martin.  One Trayvon Martin incident should be enough, and cause to revoke all CCWs nationwide.
          There of course, was the parking lot shooting over loud music.  Verifying all CCW holders are one young black man away from being murderers.

          You, I, and I'll dare say the RKBA group, will agree on an improved background check database, and better application of the NICS system standards.

          I'd like to see a weapons-free divorce system, with Court interview of the former couple to see IF anyone will get their guns back.  No lawyers present, no cooling-off period.
          I want it hot-n-fresh, so when the "I'll fucking kill you bitch" comes out, it's when there's a pre-emptive bailment of the guns.  
          Entering them as evidence later, is unacceptable.

          Crime vectors:
          I can see the vector, having been a traveling instructor throughout the Northeast in the crack era.  
          Cows, apples, corn and Tec-9 drive-bys.  That was the go-to gangsta gun back then.  The poor man's Uzi.
          Luckily, the gun and operator weren't too proficient, and of 32 round fired in front of a movie theater, one teen was hit with a ricochet "in the but-tocks" as Forest Gump would say.

          I can not agree the Tec-9 preceded the arrival of the crack cocaine.  Concurrent, and contributing to the demise of the area, I can certainly agree to.
          Thousands of other firearms in that County, played no role in the spread of drug gangsterism, nor random street violence.
          So, perhaps we'll disagree to the extent that guns proliferate crime, as I feel it's the crime that proliferates the guns.

          Either way, we agree there's a link.

          Thank you for your response.

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