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View Diary: Houston City Council Member: "You don't die from the flu." (36 comments)

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  •  Wait, "natural immunity is superior"? (18+ / 0-)

    Does the Councilman even understand how vaccines work?

    Or is he one of those "science, shmience" idiots?

    "Specialization is for insects." -- Heinlein

    by BachFan on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:03:44 PM PST

    •  It can be better in certain rare cases. As an (4+ / 0-)

      example every attempt to create a CMV vaccine has always ended up with the vaccine being worse than what it was trying to prevent.  Of course, it helps that the only problem with CMV is if you catch it during pregnancy as it can cause birth defects.  For people with a healthy immune system (and not pregnant) there are rarely any symptoms at all when it is caught.

      Of course, that is the exception not the rule and only applies if you are considering a highly experimental vaccine, not one that has been fully approved by the FDA.  Oh, quick tip: consider getting Cervarix instead of Gardasil for HPV as it apparently has fewer side effects.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:22:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, CMV appears to cause salivary gland (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Throw The Bums Out, Oh Mary Oh

        cancers, though given that 80% of us are infected but only a very small fraction get salivary gland cancers, I wouldn't say the risk is super high.

        On the other hand, one supposes CMV is also the culprit in other cancers as well, it just hasn't yet been identified.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:33:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Still, the risk of complications of the CMV (0+ / 0-)

          vaccine(s), assuming you can even find someone willing to make it for you, outweigh any potential benefits.  Best to wait until there is one that is FDA approved.  The same applies to smallpox as in order to get the vaccination nowadays you have to find a cow infected with cowpox, cut your own arm with a sterile scalpel, and rub the pus into the wound which means a much higher risk of infection than just getting a shot like you used to be able to do.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:39:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Of course not; Immunology is complicated. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FloridaSNMOM, Oh Mary Oh

      But there is a homeopathic movement against vaccination.

      •  Most people don't. How many people know that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        you should try to avoid any OTC pain relievers (ask your doctor if you are on aspirin therapy or prescription painkillers that contain tylenol) for 2 weeks before and after any vaccination if possible.  It's kind of hard to unless you know what “Cycloozygenase-1 Orchestrates Germinal Center Formation and Antibody Class-Switch via Regulation of IL-17” (published in The Journal of Immunology) means.  Hell, even I barely understand that.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:34:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting paper; thanks. (2+ / 0-)

          There should definitely be a clinical study in humans to see whether, e.g. low-dose aspirin therapy should be suspended for vaccinations.

          •  Can you give me any more details in plain (0+ / 0-)

            English aside from just "COX-1 inhibitors reduce antibody production"?  Also, keep in mind that there haven't even been any studies yet to determine if the information applies to humans in the first place as it was an animal study only.  Though if it was a huge problem wouldn't it have been noticed by now as parents have been giving their kids tylenol after their shots for decades now? (and nobody is going to be willing to give up their prescription pain killers and endure weeks of excruciating pain just to have a better flu shot)

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:59:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They found evidence that COX is involved (2+ / 0-)

              in regulating pathways that produce IL-6 and IL-17, which are in turn needed to produce Ab. As you say, it is a murine result, and the quantitative importance of this for clinical practice isn't clear. I take low-dose aspirin therapy, and certainly I've never been advised to suspend it around having a vaccination.

            •  English translation (5+ / 0-)

              Over the counter meds like aspirin and Tylenol (acetaminophen) are not only painkillers. They also have anti-inflammatory properties, and act to reduce fever.

              Inflammation and fever are caused by the body's immune system reacting to infection (usually) by releasing chemicals (cytokines) that attract the cells of the immune system (monocytes, B and T lymphocytes) to the site of the infection or injury where they mount an immune response or clean up dead or dying cells.

              The aches and fever you feel during a cold or fly are generally not caused by the virus, but by the immune response to the virus. Sometimes, the immune response gets over-active and fever gets too high. Aspirin and Tylenol dial back the response a bit.

              The theory is that if they do that during natural infection, they can inhibit a productive immune response to vaccine (which is usually a weaker response anyway). The article supports that hypothesis ( in a mouse model at least), but it's not accepted practice yet to advise people not to take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (aspirin, acetominophen, ibuprofen) after vaccination yet.

              •  The ability of asprin etc. to dial back innate (3+ / 0-)

                immune response is well-known -- these substances block the synthesis of signal molecules (prostaglandin) that promote inflammation. That is why they are prescribed for preventing formation of plaque in arteries, which is an immune response to inflammation.

                What is different about this article is the suggestion that humoral immune response (antibody based response -- the adaptive immune system) may also be suppressed. Vaccines are intended to activate this kind of response, which also create memory cells that can regenerate antibodies if the antigens appear again in future.

    •  Well, with any luck his antivax stance (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fuzzyguy, Oh Mary Oh

      will keep him from being protected by herd immunity.

      Sadly, his antivax stance will doubtless have an adverse impact on Houston's herd immunity overall...

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:39:27 PM PST

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