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  •  I should have added (10+ / 0-)

    ...that suicide is the ultimate in selfish acts.

    That doesn't mean I can't forgive someone for doing it, though. I can't know their pain, what they were thinking at that moment, why they saw it as a solution.

    I refuse to forget the good, just to condemn someone for a choice they made at the moment they felt they were at a point so in their lives that was so low that they couldn't bear it for another second.

    "I forgive you" is such a powerful thing.

    "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

    by Timbuk3 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 07:27:22 PM PST

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    •  Not Selfish Most of the Time for My Money. (15+ / 0-)

      I have depression in the family in several members I see up close. Desperation is much closer than selfishness. Their ability to experience the little pleasures of any and all things down to the tiniest acts and experiences is depressed, while the pains, annoyances and frustrations of every little thing are left at full strength. It's not just grand things like occupation or relationships, it comes all the way down to such miniscule decisions as whether to switch on a light when it's darkening, doing the dishes, going out to see a movie.

      For some, the incessance of life punishing you for existing finally wins out. Some can't get it together to seek help or sustain it; some can't be helped enough by meds or counseling, and they want to stop hurting.

      For selfishness I'd look more to people who seem to do it for mostly reasons of life circumstances such as a loss of lover, status or security. I could definitely be wrong but I think this is fewer than people in desperate mental health conditions.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 08:02:55 PM PST

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      •  Thanks for this (8+ / 0-)

        I appreciate the insight.

        But I maintain that "I can't deal with it" is a selfish reaction IF (and it's an important "if") the person remains capable of understanding the guilt trip they're about to lay on anyone who cares about them, who they have expectations of, or they KNOW would react with "what could I have done to prevent this?"

        Their ability to experience the little pleasures of any and all things down to the tiniest acts and experiences is depressed, while the pains, annoyances and frustrations of every little thing are left at full strength.
        Jeebus.

        What a (real and) miserable way to experience life.

        It does border on psychopathy. "I don't care what you think or how I hurt you, what matters is" ending my own miserable existence.

        I don't claim to have experienced it, goose, or to understand it. But I do think it's got an odd sort of "manipulation" aspect to it. "I hurt so bad, I'm gonna make YOU hurt, too" happens, in some suicides. I'm sure of it.

        And goose, JFTR, I've had a room mate commit suicide. He was infatuated with another room mate, drunk, and called out "(NAME), get out here" before he put a bullet in his head. She saw it as it happened.

        So, I'm going to retract my broad brush "all suicides are selfish" statement, but I'm not backing down on SOME of them are.

        And, BTW, I forgive him, too.

        "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

        by Timbuk3 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 08:24:51 PM PST

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        •  one friend who survived multiple attempts (6+ / 0-)

          at ending her life until she realized she should have been angry at her husband instead of herself said that her world turned to shades of grey - she could see no color.

          and all she wanted was for the pain to end.

          there was no manipulation - only pain.

          anger and grief are ours to deal with - their world was filled with an intolerable pain and overwhelming emotion that we can never imagine.

          i hope doc has found peace - and for him, the next trip around this universe will bring him joy instead of that pain.

        •  I appreciate your retraction (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timbuk3, JBL55

          and I'm very sorry you had to go through your roommate's hideous, hostile suicide.

          We're wired for many kinds of pain, feel those kinds differently from one another, and have different tolerances for the different kinds.

          Our obligation to others ideally takes into account the ability of those others to care for themselves, but we have every bit as much of an obligation to ourself. Sometimes the pain becomes unbearable, there is no way to explain why the pain is unbearable and/or we do not wish to explain why.

          And yes, some people are hostile, even murderously so -- as we've seen so graphically in the past few weeks -- but SO very very many are not. They just hurt more than living is worth, there is a very rational way to end the pain, and the rest of us are left to make peace with their decision (which can be especially traumatic for people who haven't yet made peace with their own death) and get along as well as we can.

          YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

          by raincrow on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 04:04:24 AM PST

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