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View Diary: It's Time To Stop Pretending John McCain Is A "Hero" (280 comments)

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  •  Well, that's a pretty sore subject for me. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    susanala, Smoh, worldlotus, alain2112

    I rec'd your previous comment as a pretty fair and reasonable assessment, but the issue of "swiftboating" is a whole 'nother thing.

    For me, the first issue defiining "swiftboating" is that it's based on a lie.  What are we proposing to say about McCain that is untrue?

    An accurate charge, a true accusation, a tough-but-fair confrontation--those to me are not "swiftboating", but simply good, hard campaigning and are as American as apple pie.  IMHO, we ought to do one hell of a lot more of that.

    Making shit up and funding the mass distribution of it via shady/back-room/unaccountable millionaires and billionaires (esp. in a pre-Citizens United Not Timid (C.U.N.T.)--I refuse to clean up the name those bastards chose for themselves--world) in an unregulated, for-profit media that's "swiftboating".

    "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

    by bartcopfan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:01:40 AM PST

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    •  Read this: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Red Bean, sneakers563

      This is a load of unsupported crap designed to trash John McCain's record, not as a politician, but as a serviceman.

      We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

      by raptavio on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:04:06 AM PST

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      •  Thanks for the link. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        worldlotus, Eyesbright, Ellid

        I probably accept/agree w/ about half of that stuff.

        I've never served myself, so I have to rely on others' experiences for things military and I have lots of salt grains handy.  I accept that there are probably lots of reasons to graduate from service academies w/ low rankings, some dealing w/ the graduate, some w/ the faculty and higher-ups and their relationship(s) w/ the graduate.

        I accept that, if anything, he used his connections to get into combat, which puts him lightyears ahead of W, IMO.    This also makes me loathe his treatment at the hands of W and Rove during the 2000 Republican't primary campaign even more.

        (Actually, I can accept that GWHB never actually directly pulled strings to get the Demon Spawn into the TxANG, but you'll never convince me it didn't happen--not when the then-Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives said it did--the real message of the 2004 events that sunk Dan Rather's formerly-illustrious career.)

        It was my previous understanding that the destruction of Navy aircraft on the USS Forrestal was due to non-standard ("cowboy-ish") procedures he used while on the flight deck. On further review, I'm willing to accept that he had no culpability in the fire and, in fact, acted heroically to assist others during the event.  Based on this, I will stop referring to him as a North Vietnamese ace and will revoke my earlier 'recommend' to another's comment on this thread.

        I'm willing to accept that, once captured, POW McCain refused to use his connections to receive more-favorable treatment from his captors.  I'm also willing to believe that he (but not certain that he did) sang like a bird for them (esp. under torture).

        I can accept that he was or has-been a hero in some instances as well as that in many others he has not and has benefitted from the political destruction of others who were acting heroically.

        But, mainly, I'm willing to accept that his function since serving in Congress and esp. the Senate is (w/ a few distant, "mavericky" exceptions like the carbon cap-and-trade and immigration reform legislation he now opposes) to press an unheroic conservative agenda.  Millionaires and billionaires taking money away from poor and non-politically-connected folks is about as far away from heroism as I can imagine.

        "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

        by bartcopfan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:58:04 AM PST

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        •  No, he did not act heroically during Forrestal (10+ / 0-)

          Please read this if you want to know what happened:

          The damage to the Forrestal was far more grievous: The explosion set off a chain reaction of bombs, creating a devastating inferno that would kill 134 of the carrier's 5,000-man crew, injure 161 and threaten to sink the ship.

          These are the moments that test men's mettle. Where leaders are born. Leaders like . . . Lt. Cmdr. Herb Hope, pilot of the A-4 three planes down from McCain's. Cornered by flames at the stern of the carrier, Hope hurled himself off the flight deck into a safety net and clambered into the hangar deck below, where the fire was spreading. According to an official Navy history of the fire, Hope then "gallantly took command of a firefighting team" that would help contain the conflagration and ultimately save the ship.

          McCain displayed little of Hope's valor. Although he would soon regale The New York Times with tales of the heroism of the brave enlisted men who "stayed to help the pilots fight the fire," McCain took no part in dousing the flames himself. After going belowdecks and briefly helping sailors who were frantically trying to unload bombs from an elevator to the flight deck, McCain retreated to the safety of the "ready room," where off-duty pilots spent their noncombat hours talking trash and playing poker. There, McCain watched the conflagration unfold on the room's closed-circuit television — bearing distant witness to the valiant self-sacrifice of others who died trying to save the ship, pushing jets into the sea to keep their bombs from exploding on deck.

          As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. "This distressed me considerably," he recalls in Faith of My Fathers. "I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal."

          The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."

          From page 4 an excellent, enlightening article.

          A closer look at the life and career of John McCain reveals a disturbing record of recklessness and dishonesty

          It's long but extremely informative and well-researched. In truth, John McCain is no hero.

      •  Your comment is a lie. The comment your comment (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JL, alain2112, Ellid, Renie57, jaysunb, Mathazar

        references makes statements about John McCain's service record. In response, and using the comment as a poster child for every 'wrong' (according to you, with no evidence offered that justifies your own claim) supposedly made against McCain in this diary's comment thread, you posted this lie:

        This is a load of unsupported crap designed to trash John McCain's record, not as a politician, but as a serviceman.
        Every statement about his record made in that comment is true and has been written about and is documented as true. If you can find even one statement about McCain's service (as revealed in that comment) that is not true, THEN BRING IT. OTHERWISE, STOP LYING ABOUT ANOTHER KOSSAK'S COMMENT, which is a violation of site rules.

        Some of the ex-sailors* who served at the same time as Not-An-Admiral-Even-In-Retirement McCain know the full truth about his entire service record, both the public and the private parts. Everything in the comment your comment references about McCain's service is a part of the official public record of his service. If you've been too indifferent to find out these things for yourself, as could any teenager with a computer and internet access, at least have the DK integrity to stay silent. Instead, you've allowed your ignorance to spill out as a hide-rateable comment of your own.
        *That ex-sailor list doesn't include me because I was honorably discharged from the US Navy in October 9, 1959.

        Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

        by davidincleveland on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 10:15:48 AM PST

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        •  My comment (0+ / 0-)

          is the unvarnished truth -- you have failed to support your swiftboating with a single citation.

          We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

          by raptavio on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 11:24:10 AM PST

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        •  Oh and also (0+ / 0-)

          anyone (besides you, of course) who thinks I'm lying is perfectly within his rights to HR me -- but I betcha nobody will, because I ain't.

          We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

          by raptavio on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 11:27:28 AM PST

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