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View Diary: The Moral Realities of Self Defense Shootings (238 comments)

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  •  Agreed (23+ / 0-)

    I would have a lot of trouble living with myself if I shot someone over a piece of meaningless property.

    I would have a better ability to rationalize a TRUE self-defense shooting though I am not sure I'd be "ok" after it.

    "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

    by Grizzard on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 08:32:51 AM PST

    •  If They Enter Your Home Uninvited (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nextstep, misslegalbeagle, DFWmom

      How do you know their intent?

      It's probably not a late night flower delivery.

      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

      by The Baculum King on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:36:47 PM PST

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      •  This is the kind of snide arrogance (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, Mikey, MBNYC, Laconic Lib

        that really gets me with the gun "enthusiasts."

        Ooooh, "It's probably not a late night flower delivery." You are SO cool and manly!

        And we all needed the incredibly clever YOU to point that out in just that arrogant, snarky, self-righteous way. Because you're clearly a real manly, man's man. Just like Sly Stallone in that cool movie. Maybe the next time you shoot someone, you can pause (just for effect, you know) and then say, "You're fired." That would make you even cooler!

        Or here's a thought...

        How about if "They" enter your home at night and you don't know their intent... and they turn out to be your grandson, but you shoot them dead anyway?

        How about if they walk down your driveway at night and you shoot them dead, but they turn out to be a party guest looking for the house next door?

        Or how about if they enter your home and you don't know their intent, but you're not home, they find your guns, steal them, and use them to murder a bunch of children?

        Or how about they enter your home with guns of their own, there are more of them than you and, instead of just scaring you and stealing your TV, they kill you and your family for shooting one of them.

        Or how about they enter your home, you shoot them (Hooray, you're a hero! And a real man.) and every morning you come down to see the huge spot on the carpet where their blood soaked in, so dark and red, and even thought the crime scene cleaners have done their best, you can still see the stain and smell the blood, so you replace the carpet, but you still KNOW where the stain was so you reflexively step around it even though there's nothing there to step in, and you still wake up late at night on the verge of tears and you don't know why but you can still see the face of the boy you killed, no older than thirteen or fourteen, his face so shocked by his own death and the blood pours out of him like water from a tipped over glass and it will never, never stop.

        Nah. You're prolly too much of a real man to ever let taking someone's life do anything more than inconvenience your day. Cause you're so cool.

        •  I Really Am Quite Sorry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          misslegalbeagle

          That anybody has to inhabit a world of angst like that. Answering you point-by-point would be entirely pointless, so I'll wish you a Good Day.

          Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

          by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 05:11:47 AM PST

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        •  Captian Frogbert, I have had people try to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DFWmom, The Baculum King

          enter my home with force and I know it was not a late night flower delivery. And If I practice a bit of gallows humor when I discuss this, it's not because I am glorifying violence, it's how I handle the thoughts of possibly going through some kind of potentially violent assault again.

          I have to laugh, or I just might loose my mind. If that pisses you off then so be it, but I have to live in this world too and sometimes, it's not a very nice world to me or my other female friends.

          It's probably also not a pizza delivery, or the avon lady either.

          The effed up part of this, if I let some apparently lost, lonely stranger into my home or car at any time of the day or night, and they hurt me or my kids--I wouldn't be praised for my humanity and compassion--but instead held up as an example of extreme stupidity for falling for the oldest trick in the book.

          I can't win.

          I am either a cruel, mean old lady or an idiot who needs to have her head checked.

          But most of all, I am never allowed to to make a joke about something so terrible that it could be a situation that traumatizes my entire family so that we don't sleep at night for six months.

        •  He believes NRA lies. Mainly the Big Lie (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Powered Grace, Laconic Lib

          that American gun owners fend off attackers 1,000,000 times a year, defending their homes.

          It's bullshxt.

          Total bullshxt.

          That would require close to 3,000 home invasions a day. If DoJ includes burglars apprehended with knives, there are 8,000 such events a year. Yeah... 8,000 a year.

          America is not a "Batman" movie.

          The actual count for civilian defensive shootings was 232 Justifiable Homicide fatalities in all of 2010. That's from FBI. Triple that to include woundings.

          No way there were more than 800 defensive shooting by civilians -- most of those happening at small businesses such as check cashers, bodegas, gas stations.

          800 : 310,000,000 = 1 : 400,000.

          Home defenses are a third of that. We're talking 1-in-a-1,000,000 territory.

          By way of comparison you do a lot better buying a lightning rod -- that's defense against a real 25,000 house-strikes a year and these strikes are all readily lethal if you're in the way.

          NRA lies. They lie to sell guns. Apparently no one in corporate media has support for calling them out as liars.

          Baby Killers. That's one truth that does apply to NRA.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 05:50:43 AM PST

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          •  should include the number of people (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laconic Lib

            shot and killed by police every year.  On the street, in their own homes.

            I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

            by wretchedhive on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 07:01:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  LEO shootings based on FBI stats found here: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bontemps2012

              http://www.fbi.gov/...

              Other statistics are hard to come by since the NRA has bribed congress to prevent organized collection and analysis of any activities involving guns, ESPECIALLY crime statistics.

              But yeah, the number of home invasions stopped by guns is vanishingly small. Much smaller than the number of accidental shootings and suicides. Probably.

              But every gun nut swears up and down that they have been the victim of a gang of crazed zombies crashing through their doors only to be driven off my the brave actions of me and my trusty six gun. And my dog's gun, too.

              I, on the other hand, have spent 53 years NOT being assaulted by roving bands of drug-crazed hooligans slavering for my blood and the blood of my children. And I don't know anyone else who has, either. And I know quite a few people.

              A girlfriend I had in high school survived a shooting, though. She was sitting in her living room watching TV with her parents when a shotgun blast came through her window. No one was hurt. Hard to see how having a gun in the house could have prevented that, though.

              And the guy who photographed my sister's wedding went hunting the weekend after and shot himself dead while drunkenly trying to manhandle his loaded shotgun into the gun rack in the back of his truck. It took more than a year to get her wedding pictures. So there's that.

              A friend from years ago shot himself in the head with his .38 after becoming a heroin addict.

              Look, I feel the attraction of guns. I like guns. I was on my high school rifle team. I'm a naval history buff and know more than a rational person should about smooth bore naval gunnery. I'm a pretty good pistol shot and I've fired all sorts of weapons, including automatics (a friend used to work at a movie prop house, we got to play, one day) and black powder weapons. I've been bullied at school. My father was threatened by the mafia. I understand the fear. I get it. But it doesn't rule my life or my morals. And I don't believe the obvious NRA lies.

              We have become a country ruled by the childish fantasies of grown-up little boys who love their guns more than their families or their sanity.

              We are a nation apart, slowly killing ourselves with fantasies driven by fear and ideologies based in self-agrandizement and hate. We base policy on things seen in bad movies. No nation on earth not engaged in civil war has as many gun deaths as we do. No sane nation on earth allows itself to be endangered by radical fanatics preaching eternal gun war against its own citizens. No other nation listens to the racist crazies and fetishists or sets policy based on their blathering rants.

              Why do we? What is it about the American psyche that drives us to this self-destructive lunacy? Why can't we seem to grasp the need to apply the brakes even a smidgen? Why are we trapped in this culture of fear and revenge fantasies? How did we build the wealthiest nation in the history of the world and leave so many of our citizens so terrified for their lives?

              What the hell is wrong with us?

              •  Birchers/NRA/Fox/etc sell paranoia. (0+ / 0-)

                It's done by design.

                "Paranoid style" propaganda campaigns dominate right wing communication. Far Right support totals hundreds of millions a year.

                The aim is to create delusions. Their successes become communal delusions, the stuff of multiple Red State threads.

                -- http://www.theonion.com/...

                For a cute/comic example.

                "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

                by bontemps2012 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 09:59:20 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  the left is not completely innocent (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bontemps2012

                  in the paranoia for political gain department either.  but true, they haven't made an entire industry of it.

                  I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

                  by wretchedhive on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 11:38:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Your Lack of Knowledge is Showing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bontemps2012

            For every fatal self-defense shooting there are probably 20 non-fatal self-defense shootings, and for every non-fatal self-defense shooting there are probably 25 self-defense uses of a firearm that involves one or more shots being fired but no casualties, and for every one of those there are probably 50 uses of a firearm in self-defense in which no shots are fired.

            Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

            by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 05:21:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The ratio of non-fatal to fatal runs right (0+ / 0-)

              around 2:1 for self-defense shootings.

              You are off by an order of magnitude.

              One thing you might be missing is the range, the distance between shooter and target. The self-defense shootings take place inside 5 meters and they rarely stop with one bullet fired.

              Accidental shootings are not aimed. The hits are random. One bullet gets fired. That is where a 20:1 ratio is normal.

              "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

              by bontemps2012 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 05:50:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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