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View Diary: The Moral Realities of Self Defense Shootings (238 comments)

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  •  Your choice would not be the best for the world (0+ / 0-)

    I am going to go out on a limb and say you are probably contributing something to this world (I am guessing because you are active on the internet and socially conscious enough to be involved with politics.)

    It would be doing the world disservice to let you die so that a street thug could walk away.  

    All good, if any, that could ever come from a person who would put you in a situation is nothing compared to the value lost from your life, or that of another innocent.

    •  I am unsure of that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kevskos, salamanderempress, splashy

      I use my case as an example, but there are several others out there.  In my case, two kids sat and watched someone stab me repeatedly and were caught.   They both fessed up, they both had committed a horrible crime.   They were part of a group of kids who were up to no good.

      But 20 years later, they are to everything I know, good people with families who have repented from their mistakes.

      We've had congressmen who have done the same.. House or Rep Member Mfume has admitted as a teen he was a part of a group that was responsible for a fair amount of crime.   In dealing with violent crime victims, I've known people who were criminals who became the victim.

      And they turned their life around.    The assumption you make is that a "street thug" etc. can never turn their life around and reform.  And maybe they won't, but that is definitely not a certainty.   There have been people who have committed some truly terrible crimes who have reformed their life.    

      If we didn't believe in the chance that people could be rehabilitated, the entire philosophy of our prison system would be a lie.

      Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

      by Chris Reeves on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 08:56:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some can turn their life around (0+ / 0-)

        But risking your life is not worth it.

        I am not assuming that they have 0 chance.

        I am just assuming the odds are far enough against it, that it clearly is not worth it.

        The payoff for I and society putting our money on you safety over theirs is far far far far far better .  

        "If we didn't believe in the chance that people could be rehabilitated, the entire philosophy of our prison system would be a lie."

        I do not believe that prison rehabilitates, actually from what evidence Ive seen. The opposite. Its not called a criminal college for no reason.

        The idea of our justice system being for rehabilitation is your option not fact.  I and many other do not share that opinion.

        •  Not an opinion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevskos
          The idea of our justice system being for rehabilitation is your option not fact.  I and many other do not share that opinion.
          I just want to clear something up; we don't ever know the outcome, but the reason of the prison system, with the exception of those sentenced to death, is the hope that a prisoner may find a use for their life beyond their criminal past.   Even for those who were convicted of violent crimes and sentenced to life.

          There is no doubt that prison is a punishment for crimes committed; but if that's all it was, an extended "time out" for criminals, we would not invest all the money and resources in helping to provide prisoners a chance to reform.

          In the end, the goal of a society is to punish those who need it, and provide them a chance to not be a menace to a society.  If we don't do that, we are basically saying: we stick you in assuming you are a terrible person, and when you come out we count on you being a terrible person again.

          This isn't an opinion, US Department of Correction money spent on reform pretty much bears this out.

          Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

          by Chris Reeves on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:30:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Opinion not fact at all. (0+ / 0-)

            The department of corrections spends money doing these things, because they are required by law to do so.

            Which is a good thing because investing in education etc . even at that late of a stage reduces criminal activity.

            But let me share my opinion not fact. They do this because it is good for society. Not because the filth deserve it.

            The goal of jail is to provide justice. Note the term "justice" in the "justice system". Removing and taking away rights and privileges of those whom have harmed others as punishment.

            " If we don't do that, we are basically saying: we stick you in assuming you are a terrible person, and when you come out we count on you being a terrible person again."

            That is a good assumption it holds true more often than not. We provide these options, not because the average criminal will take advantage of them. But because that a large enough minority will that it makes it worth it.  

            •  Justice and Punishment are not synonymous (0+ / 0-)

              This is where we kind of lose it.   Again, when I look at my case, and several others, justice for me was the fact that the people who committed the crime learned from it and changed.   That was justice.  It was the justice I wanted.   It was the justice that in two cases I got.

              In the case of the person still in prison, I don't mind seeing him punished.  He did some horrific, horrible things.   But the reason he's still in prison instead of out earlier is because he didn't learn from his lessons.   He didn't change.

              Justice can't be all about punishment.  The definition of Justice:

              The quality of being fair and reasonable.
              It is a fair and reasonable response to a crime.   For me, reasonable is an element of punishment combined with a fair chance at rehabilitation.  If it is only a matter of punishment, there is no fair shake provided to anyone in a chance to come out of prison and rejoin society as a productive member.

              Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

              by Chris Reeves on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 07:52:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree justice and punishment are not the same (0+ / 0-)

                But I will just pull another random definition of justice.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                "
                The Western notion of justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion or equity. It is also the act of being just and/or fair"

                I am kinda an old school Hammurabi's code kind of guy. Someone attacked another person unprovoked and does major harm, I think you are aware of what I think is equal and fair.

                I think its fair to state that we can agree to disagree with what is reasonable.

                However I would like to point out that I would be surprised if even you agree that it was "equal" if all they got was a re-education and you got victimized.  That is why justice to me requires some element of punishment. In the case of criminal behavior.

                I would also not say that it is reasonable to reward someone for a crime. A education is a reward.

                But alas for the good of society it is good to re-educate.

                Alas I find myself defending something I do not really believe in.  Jail is such a waste of resources.  My ideal world. Something around 3 levels of punishment. 1) Community service 2) Banishment 3) Death penalty .

                But since I do not see our legal system changing so drastically. I just will stick to supporting victims rights to defend themselves at whatever cost to a criminal perpetrator.
                 

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