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View Diary: A fetus is not a person if it costs us money, says Catholic Church (238 comments)

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  •  To be a victim of medical malpractice, (4+ / 0-)

    I don't think you have to be a citizen.

    •  What if the killer isn't a doctor? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LeftyAce

      Not "medical malpractice", just someone kills a pregnant woman. Why are two murder charges allowed by those 29 states? This isn't "depriving the (dead) woman of her fetus", this is straight-up, "that fetus was a murder victim". Scott Peterson got convicted for second degree murder for killing a fetus, and I nary heard a peep from progressives about how that flew in the face of Roe.

      •  Abortion is the decision of the woman... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box

        The doctor acts on her wishes.

        Naturally there are many ramifications as to why this woman logicked that an abortion was necessary (beyond purely medical ones such as a fallopian tube, ectopic pregnancy).

        But what do conservatives say of providing for education, heath care, etc. of MEN so that they don't treat pregnancies as trophies?

        And I am only picking the first idea I see.

        There are more things in this issue than simply "murder", if one can call it that.

        Reductionism doesn't work very well under extended daylight.

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

        by unclebucky on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 06:37:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely. You also don't have to be a citizen (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mizzquagmire

        to be the victim of murder. My reference to medical malpractice was due to the fact that the diary was regarding a medical malpractice suit.

        The point I was trying to make was that arguing about the language surrounding citizenship ("born in the US") and trying to use that to prove that fetii aren't citizens doesn't prevent the right wing nutjobs from giving them legal rights. They just can't vote :-P I totally agree with you that classifying killing a fetus as murder smells an awful lot like a backdoor attack on Roe.

    •  Agreed, but making a distinction of who is... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LeftyAce, mizzquagmire

      a citizen, resident, etc. after a conception creates many more victims, I think.

      I mean, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not an ethicist, but something suggests to me that if we start this business of making fetuses (feti, I jest using Latin 2nd Declension plural) citizens.

      Does one get a certificate of conception?

      Does such a "citizen" get a proxy vote? Instead early voting, in utero voting?

      I agree that the murder or the death of a pregnant person is twice as tragic, and that the issue of ending a pregnancy (without the consent of the woman who carries it) is equally tragic, and I could also argue that if a fetus is healthy, well on its way to being born healthy and deciding to end its progress is also tragic. I could go that far. But...

      But one's life and one's body is still one's own business. That's why murder is wrong and that's why physician-assisted suicide is not. That's why early abortion is the woman's decision only, and why late abortion requires consultation, consoling and heavy thinking.

      These things are not easy. But one thing is certain, the RCC is stepping into it big time, and I no longer give it (the clergy -- the people are different) any consideration whatsoever.

      And... this is too heavy a thing for one post. Make it a conversation, not a condemnation (except of the RCC).

      Thx. --UB.

      "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

      by unclebucky on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 06:31:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Totally with you on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        unclebucky, mizzquagmire

        almost all points. I still think the citizenship issue is a red herring, since non-citizens can be the victims of crimes and enjoy legal protection against murder, etc. It would be absurd for the RW to classify a fetus as a citizen, but it would be equally insidious for them to classify fetuses as persons who are not yet citizens (the latter distinction occurring after birth, in line with the 14th amendment).

        The RCC has, once again, illustrated their immense hypocrisy in this case.

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