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View Diary: Michael Moore Speaks Out on Zero Dark Thirty (85 comments)

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  •  You are misquoting him (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mumtaznepal, viral, Jon Says, arlandbaee

    He says that most information gained from torture will be useless because most people will attempt to stop the torture by giving their torturers the information they think they want.

    It has astounded me that so many otherwise smart people are so afraid to admit that torture - which is immoral, illegal and usually ineffective - might not get useful information sometime. This has been a huge part of the anti-ZB30 argument (people are so easily misguided, this movie will validate torture, it must be opposed).

    The effect is that the average person - who gets that faced with torture he's usually give up information - rejects the greater arguments against torture because those who argue against the film start with the wrong conclusion that torture doesn't work usually.

    •  I quoted him! It's a direct quote-- (9+ / 0-)
      If you allow the question to be "did torture work?" then you'll lose because yes, if you torture someone who actually has the information, they will eventually give it to you.
      Such bullshit.

      Generally, the most hardened suspects likely to have the best info are least likely to break, not least because being tortured always intensifies their feeling of righteousness.

      No opponent of torture - not me, not anyone -- has ever said torture can't work. Of course, it conceivably could. We're saying--

      a) there's no proof it provided valuable info in the hunt for OBL; indeed, people with access to the SSCI report say there's proof it didn't

      b) it's much less likely to produce accurate info than legal, rapport-building techniques.

      •  c) there's evidence that... (11+ / 0-)

        ...torture can provide disinformation that gets innocent people killed if the torturers are gamed by well-prepared, highly committed captives.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 01:59:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I heard an interview with John McCain in which (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades, jayden

          he talked about giving the North Vietnamese false information when he was being tortured. Here is a statement from a SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) instructor on teaching Americans how to resist if captured and tortured.

          When torture is applied, and right at the top of our torture slide, in our resistance lesson is why torture does not work. And the first line of that PowerPoint is, it's completely ineffective. Once a person learns what is coming, they gain the ability to resist. Even if it's just a little bit.

          And so waterboarding is a demonstrator to show just how an evil totalitarian nation can use one of many, many different tortures. And there are some horrible, horrible tortures out there. Waterboarding's a mild one, but it's equally as stressful. But it demonstrates that they have the ability to put you in a situation where you will comply.

          Now, complying does not necessarily mean—does not necessarily mean that you're giving the truth. You're giving an answer. And an answer can be anything. It can be a truth, a half-truth, a lie, a medley of all three in the same sentence. You know?

          Gerrymandra delenda est

          by Mokurai on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 04:12:42 PM PST

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      •  Just to finish that quote (0+ / 0-)

        from Moore, here's the rest of that paragraph:

        The problem is, the other 99 who don't know anything will also tell you anything to get you to stop torturing – but their information is wrong. How do you know which one of the 100 is the man with the goods? You don't.
        So its a direct quote - that leaves out the crux of the point he's trying to make.

        Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by NLinStPaul on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 07:38:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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