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View Diary: "One Million Moms" vs. a NYT must-read: "Selling a New Generation on Guns" (151 comments)

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  •  XYY) NRA having generated $50-billion (9+ / 0-)

    of extra sales for the gun industry.

    That's over the last 20 years.

    They lie that Americans defend their homes 2,500,000 times a year with guns.

    But that would generate between 75,000 and 207,000 defensive shootings a year. And somewhere between 38,000 and 100,000 defensively-generated fatalities.

    The real number of defensive fatalities ???

    232.

    That's the FBI figure for 2010. Total justifiable homicide fatalities using guns for the whole country.

    232.

    Americans listened to NRA. Went out and bought 100,000,000 extra guns over the last 20 years. Spend $50-billion on this silliness.

    And most of that 232 fatalities was not generated at homes. Not by a long shot.

    10,000 to 12,000 is a likely number for all defensive gun uses, including shooting raccoons.

    $40-$50 on a large size "fire extinguisher" sized pepper spray canister is the right choice for home defense.

    Ask any security professional.

    "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

    by bontemps2012 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 10:00:29 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PavePusher

      look at the FBI's crime victimization survey

      On average in 1987-92 about 83,000 crime victims per year used a
      firearm to defend themselves or their property.
      The lowest estimate I've seen with any kind of credible basis was around 50,000.  Every estimate based on surveys of the general population falls around 1,000,000-2,500,000.

      the purpose of the second amendment is to promote a well-regulated militia, in the same sense that the purpose of the first amendment is to promote a well-informed electorate.

      by happymisanthropy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 12:21:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  apples to oranges (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012

        The poster above gave the number of "defensive fatalities," meaning the number who died from being shot. You're giving the number of people who used a firearm for defense. This does not have any bearing on how many fatalities there were. In many of those cases, they no doubt missed or only wounded the person they were shooting at.

        •  FBI started out using police gun uses (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chantedor, Silvia Nightshade

          mixed in with civilian defenses.

          That 83,000 figure includes all police actions. There was no separation of police and civilian defenses prior to 1993.

          (Because the NCVS collects victimization data on police officers, its estimates of the use of firearms for self-defense are likely to include police use of firearms. Questionnaire revisions introduced in January 1993 will permit separate consideration of police and civilian firearm cases.)
          -- http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/...

          Immediately afterward it was pointed out that those results conflicted with validated civilian justifiable homicide data and woundings. Police and civilian results cannot be combined usefully.

          Early FBI-supported surveys also concluded that "38%" of "crime victims" with guns attacked the offenders. Obviously, police officers attack the criminals they are facing.

          If they all hit their targets, that would produce 31,540 shootings. That's the kind of wild numbers you get from going with unfiltered, undifferentiated data.

          Imagine 38% of civilians attacking with their guns.

          Civilian defenses are a whole different ball game from police crime scene responses.

          Mean guesstimate for 83,000 gunfire defenses comes in at 2,800 fatalities, if that was civilians blasting away at armed robbers, rapists, burglars. Even that does not make allowances for the bodega experience.  

          Never, ever get in a gunfight in a bodega.

          Kill Zone.

          The real numbers go to 225-to-400 civilian-produced fatalities max (from civilian justifiable homicides back early 1990s during a crack epidemic.)
          ---------------

          Big result there: 341,000 gun thefts a year.

          That started to look like a major reason for armed burglaries. Go in there and steal guns.

          Word got out in 1987-1992 that you had expensive guns, good luck with that.

          All that's gone away today. Nobody dares steal guns. Guns are for safety !!

          O.K., fine.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 03:27:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  That is the exact FBI number: 232. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silvia Nightshade

        Civilian justifiable homicides for 2010 using a gun.

        Not one body more.

        The problem with "survey" and "911 transcript" approaches is that there are individuals who are habitual 911 callers. These people generate fictional events -- reporting nonexistent gun-related encounters.

        Sorry, but validation against police reports tosses out their bull.

        Also, 232 fatalities maps to no more than 10,000 - 12,000 real crime-related gun defenses. And that is a generous calculation. The actual number should be even lower because bodega robberies generate one helluva lot of bodies. Shopkeeper guns come up, there's many bullets getting fired and the range is typically well inside 5 meters.

        Home defenses ??? Guns blazing to defend the homestead? A fantasy. Sorry to rain on your parade.

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 02:33:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  so you think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bontemps2012

          no number is credible, except the one you pulled out of your ass?

          Home defenses ??? Guns blazing to defend the homestead? A fantasy. Sorry to rain on your parade.
          A study by professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi surveyed nearly 2,000 incarcerated felons and concluded that criminals are more worried about running into armed victims than law enforcement.

          According to the Wright-Rossi survey, 34% of the felons responding from state prisons said that they had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured” by a victim armed with a firearm. The same percentage said they worried about being fired upon by armed victims, while 57% said they were more concerned with encountering an armed victim than encountering law enforcement officers.

          the purpose of the second amendment is to promote a well-regulated militia, in the same sense that the purpose of the first amendment is to promote a well-informed electorate.

          by happymisanthropy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 02:51:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Buy yourself a gun. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Silvia Nightshade

            Put it under your pillow.

            Them felons do be quaking in their slippers for fear of you !!

            "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

            by bontemps2012 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 03:30:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  They have a fortune (3+ / 0-)

      to dump on all this---and they have been successful in linking guns to freedom---patriotism---the constitution---strength and power.

      It's sickening.

      "Hey----Hey---NRA---How many kids have you killed today?"

      by lyvwyr101 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 01:42:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The lying is amazing. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lyvwyr101

        Look up a few comments to the guy who got sold on there being 83,000 gun uses a year.

        1987-1992.

        Well, yeah. Except that figure includes all police officer gun uses.

        The poor guy thinks that's civilian uses. Applicable to his needs, defending his home from a barbarian hoard of violent criminals.

        He's one of millions of Americans targeted for this crap.

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 03:57:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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