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View Diary: CO2-Getting to Work on the Demand Side (129 comments)

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  •  Again, you eliminate air travel entirely (1+ / 0-)
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    you're (literally) only one step out of 20 towards where you need to go.

    Furthermore, there are plausible ways to replace carbon based fuels for virtually every one of those other 19 steps with "clean" alternatives - but not really for air travel.

    Thus, this diarist's obsession with dinging air travelers seems not only horribly misguided, but just downright mean-spirited to boot.

    •  When you need to reduce carbon em. by 80%, (5+ / 0-)
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      Justus, AoT, bear83, Back In Blue, Creosote

      no 5% slice should be ignored.

      There's plenty of business and personal travel for which there are greener alternatives, and there's plenty of travel that is not necessary or only marginally so. Even if you only cut air travel 40-50%, that's a couple of points overall that don't have to come from somewhere else. And let's face it, getting 80% or more -- if we're going to start ignoring contributing factors -- from any one place, including the replacement of carbon based fuels, is going to be monumental at this point.

      Another example: personal carbon emissions  is estimated as 20% of the problem, institutional us at 80%. There are those who argue that personal carbon footprint reduction is a virtue if you want to pursue it, but a waste of time since the institutional use the main culprit. As I argued with air travel: Reducing institutional carbon emissions 80% is going to be hard enough without burdening it with the responsibility for also offsetting lack of an 80% on personal emissions.

      The Class, Terror and Climate Wars are indivisible and the short-term outcome will affect the planet for centuries. -WiA "When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill..." - PhilJD

      by Words In Action on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 09:27:59 AM PST

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    •  Actually (5+ / 0-)
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      Justus, Roadbed Guy, AoT, bear83, greengemini

      Even a 1/20th step helps.

      Also, the navy is now buying algal jet fuels, so a carbon neutral air travel might not be quite so impossible

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 09:51:47 AM PST

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      •  See, now that's a reasonable response (1+ / 0-)
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        suggesting "green" alternatives that do not involve a drastic reduction in lifestyle.  

        Indeed, in almost all cases it is possible to figure out a way to maintain a modern lifestyle (and why not?) w/o destroying the planet.  I don't believe it's an either/or situation like this diary portrays at all.

        •  Did you catch A Siegel's diary on (4+ / 0-)

          the role of efficiency (doing the same thing using less carbon) and conservation (saving carbon by doing less) are both pieces of the puzzle. It's a cut back on what you can, make the rest more efficient.

          The more I think about it, I think the "seven wedges" concept is useful for reducing our personal impacts. (you know, the idea that we need seven big changes to meet the reduction budget, out of some dozen or so options)

          No one thing is going to do it, so we need a mix of actions from the menu.  For me, getting renewable electricity to my house was super easy.  Also, communiting by foot, bike and public transit is super easy.  Add to that cutting back on meat a lot, avoiding cheese (good for the waistline too!) has sorta kinda happened. Local sourcing is made easier because of the stores I have available.  I don't have much call for air travel, so cutting back doesn' get me too far.

          What will be appropriate depends on where you start I guess.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 10:28:01 AM PST

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          •  No, I missed that diary (0+ / 0-)

            In any event, I continue to believe that is it totally possible to have one's cake and eat it too, for example by installing one's own PV system.

            Or even, as in my case, living near a nuclear power plant where an electric car would in essence be a zero emissions vehicle.  I hope to get myself one of those in the next 3 to 4 years (i.e., the next time I need a replacement vehicle).

        •  More magical industrial capitalist thinking (1+ / 0-)
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          If you think we can simply keep doing what were doing with different energy inputs then you a drastically, drastically wrong.  The system we have is not sustainable under the current growth model and never can be.  We need a change in how we travel and how we eat and nothing else will significantly alter our future viability as a race.  We can do this willingly or unwillingly, it's our choice.

          •  How is that magical thinking? (1+ / 0-)
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            Calamity Jean

            If I had ~ $40K to install a rooftop PV system and associated batteries to capture excess capacity during the day (or another $80K to by to Chevy Volts for the same purpose) I could in essence maintain my present lifestyle in  a zero emissions type way.

            I am totally willing to do this (just a little financially impaired at present . .. ).

            •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
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              So the food you eat doesn't have any carbon emissions?  Neither do the products you use?

              The fact of the matter is that there are no energy sources that can match oil in regards to energy density, and we rely on energy dense fuels to do a hell of a lot of what happens in the modern world.  

              I'm not sure what your current life style involves, but if meat, driving, and flying are in there then you wouldn't be able to continue it in the same way.  We can't even farm vegetables without a lot of emissions and environmental damage, and we're even running out of room to do that.

              The big problem is that we aren't just facing global warming, we're facing a general ecological disaster as a result of the industrialization of the earth, and no one wants to talk about the fact that global warming is just part of that.

              •  Yeah, OK to appease you I won't bother (2+ / 0-)
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                AoT, Calamity Jean

                planting my half acre vegetable garden next year.

                You have opened my eyes - I seriously did not realize that it was such an egregious contributor to global warming until right now.  Egad!!

                •  I didn't say you were a huge contributor (1+ / 0-)
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                  Roadbed Guy

                  And I really wasn't trying to attack you personally for your choices, mainly because I've gotten the impression before that you're pretty on point about most of this.  I'm just concerned that the larger crisis is getting lost in all of the polly-annaish proclamations that we can keep living like we are, high on the hog, if we just switch to solar or another renewable.  The problems we have are far deeper than that.

                  And I'm jealous of your garden, wish I could do that too.

      •  btw, haven't the Republican fuckwads in (0+ / 0-)

        congress put an end to that program?     I suppose I could go use the Google to confirm that . ..

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