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View Diary: Reports: Timbuktu Manuscripts Threatened By Mali Insurgents; Some Saved (221 comments)

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  •  This didn't happen quickly. (13+ / 0-)

    Like the Taliban in Afghanistan, who had threatened to destroy immense buddhas carved in the cliffs thousands of years old, the world was on notice.

    If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

    by Bensdad on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 05:07:08 PM PST

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    •  But the Taliban did destroy those... (25+ / 0-)

      and the world stood by and let it happen. At the time, I felt that the countries of the world should have stopped them, taking whatever action was necessary. No one group should have the right to detroy the history of mankind.

      Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

      by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 05:20:40 PM PST

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      •  That showed me what the Taliban REALLY stood for (11+ / 0-)

        long before Bush was selected...

        •  Destroying the Buddhas was the first time I heard (17+ / 0-)

          the word 'Taliban'.  All I could think was What IGNORANT people these are.

          And when Rumsfeld shrugged off the destruction of the Baghdad museum with "Shit happens", he showed the world What an IGNORANT person he is.

          "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

          by 417els on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 05:57:58 PM PST

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          •  We aren't going to leave Afghanistan (0+ / 0-)

            in a much different state now than it was in then.

            The BBC aired a report this morning about a little girl aged six who was being sold to pay off a family's debt.  The government says it is illegal, but the tribal leaders gave the father their "OK" so...  

            Apparently, she will be handed over to the old guy with the scraggly beard and mustache in about a year if the father can't come up with the money.

            And... Then there is the possibility that this is a scam to get people to send the family money - so don't immediately go whipping out your checkbooks, people.  

            In a nutshell in this story above, the layers upon layers of cultural, religious and political fucked-up-ness in Afghanistan are pretty apparent.

      •  Did you sign up to go deal with it? (0+ / 0-)

        And after the countries had banded to gether and invaded Afghanistan to set this right---what would have happened next?

        Happy just to be alive

        by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 05:40:05 PM PST

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        •  Sign up where? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          newpioneer

          What's your point?

          No one did anything to stop them. Perhaps if someone put a cap on the crazy back then, we wouldn't have been in a war for 10 freakin' years.

          Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

          by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:02:50 PM PST

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          •  My point is: (0+ / 0-)

            if you didn't sign up to do something about it, you can hardly blame other people for being just as reluctant. there ARE complications to invading Afghanistan you seem to be ignoring
            Not that there wasn't plenty of chance to do something, we've been at war there, as you pont out, for 10 freaking years, .

            here's the point again so you won't miss it again:  if you didn't do anything about it, don't complain because other people didn't either. They might have had their reasons too

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:14:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sign up where? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              newpioneer

              Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

              by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:16:34 PM PST

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              •  maybe they had the same problem (0+ / 0-)

                that may be why no one went to save the statues
                You think?

                Happy just to be alive

                by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:20:08 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sign up where? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  newpioneer

                  Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

                  by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:20:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Run right down and sign up for the unfantry (0+ / 0-)
                    At the time, I felt that the countries of the world should have stopped them, taking whatever action was necessary
                    Because the worlds cultures need fighting tigers like you

                    such a bad idea, as history has proven so well. we don't do very well invading remote Islamic countries

                    Happy just to be alive

                    by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:24:41 PM PST

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                    •  infantry, tho unfantry is kind of funny (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      marsanges

                      Happy just to be alive

                      by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:25:21 PM PST

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                    •  I'm just a tad too old... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      newpioneer

                      to go sign up for the unfantry. Sorry to hear you see no reason to protect the history of mankind. Do you like burning books too?

                      Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

                      by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:28:24 PM PST

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                      •  I see no reason for Americans to die for that art (0+ / 0-)

                        (or anyone else)
                        And you haven'tt given a good one yet
                        Do you like burning Americans?

                        Happy just to be alive

                        by exlrrp on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:31:01 PM PST

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                        •  Buh bye!!! n/t (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          newpioneer

                          Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

                          by reflectionsv37 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:34:52 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  September 11, 2001 (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          reflectionsv37

                          It was perfectly clear that the Taliban would destroy the statues in Afghanistan when they said they would.

                          And when they did it was perfectly clear that they'd help the Qaeda attack the US when they said they would.

                          Then the Qaeda attacked us, and the world descended even further into living hell, from which it has not recovered for over a decade.

                          If we had done something to protect the statues, we very likely would have nipped in the bud the same people who attacked us later. That is what it is to do the right thing: it has more than just immediately transactional benefits.

                          I thought everyone in the US had learned that waiting too long costs too much. Evidently not.

                          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                          by DocGonzo on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 05:17:04 AM PST

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                          •  So you think the Afghan war was a good thng? (0+ / 0-)
                            I thought everyone in the US had learned that waiting too long costs too much. Evidently not
                            I sure don't

                            When George W Bush got the idea to invade Afghnistan, it was a BAD idea as history has proven all too well.
                            When you and these other people talk about invading Afghanistan to protect Afghan Art from the Afghanis, its STILL  a bad idea

                            There's NO good reason to invade Afghanistan

                            Happy just to be alive

                            by exlrrp on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 05:23:10 AM PST

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                          •  I Didn't Say Invade (0+ / 0-)

                            But since you're the one insisting on it as if it were the only option, to reject it, you're saying we should have done nothing.

                            That was the bad option we took for years that led to our being attacked.

                            The lessons to be learned are to do something - and not to invade.

                            You are now insisting on the same course in Timbuktu. Good thing you have practically no influence on our foreign policy. Too bad too many others like you do.

                            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                            by DocGonzo on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 04:18:04 PM PST

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                •  Unfortunately, you kind of lost your (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  reflectionsv37

                  argument when you suggest that anything could have or would have been done from the inside in Afghanistan to save the Buddhas.  At that time, the country was under such tight Taliban control that people were getting shot for having television sets.  Neither an average citizen here nor there had the power or resources to stop the Taliban.  

                  Afghanistan is a really broken society and our time there won't have changed a lot.  The people who have managed to survive thirty years of wars are by and large not prepared for modern life - the people who would have been in that country were either murdered or they fled the country.

        •  Yes; there's the quandry. We can't deal with this (8+ / 0-)

          kind of destruction by force of arms, in most cases.  But it was a sad, sad loss, and this one is in my mind far greater.  Thousands of books, representing the thought and knowledge from centuries ago, when Timbuktu was a great center of learning, a precious part of the heritage of both Africa and the Islamic world.

          Why are Islamists out to destroy Islamic history and heritage?  Oh, yeah, it's the wrong KIND of Islam.

          THe people of Timbucktu have preserved these manuscripts for centuries, families passing them on generation after generation.

          So sad.

          --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

          by Fiona West on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:17:24 PM PST

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        •  You know perfectly well that becoming enlisted (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          reflectionsv37, DocGonzo

          in the armed forces doesn't give you the power to control where those forces are sent.   Someone who thinks the military should be used to do a particular task doesn't change the fact that it's NOT being used for that task by enlisting in it.  Once enlisted you're ordered to go what you're told, whether that's in the service of the thing that made you decide to enlist for or not.

          You're dishonestly trolling.    Or you're actually so dumb that you really think that a newly enlisted private gets to decide which nation to invade.

          The fact that these are the only two options is your fault.

          •  Let me put it this way (0+ / 0-)

            I know what the Army does or doesn't do, I was in it.
            Were you?  If not, its only a guess on your part, thanks for you opinion.

            My point, which you missed, is that you shouldn't advocate sending people into war if yore not willing to do it yourself.
            Thats a typically Republican thing to do.

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 05:10:34 AM PST

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            •  Your new point is better than your original point. (0+ / 0-)

              But stop being a condescending ass by saying I "missed" the point.  I didn't "miss" it because that's NOT what you actually said.  You didn't say the same thing this time as what you said the first time.  There is a massive difference between saying people should be willing to join the war they advocate for and saying the first step to advocating for a war is to join up FIRST before you know whether or not you will be successful at getting the army to be deployed to the war you had in mind.  The chances are much higher that if you do that you'll end up in a different war than the one you advocated.  Once you join up you don't get to pick where you're sent.

              Don't blame other people when the words you use mean something different from what you were attempting to say.

        •  We Have Countries for That (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          reflectionsv37

          I have a country with a government to do things I don't have time or capability to do myself, but still want done. That is why I pay over a quarter of all my income. That is why I spend time discussing politics, working for candidates, volunteering for my city's legislature's committees.

          If I had to sign up and go there to do everything myself, if everyone had to do that, we'd have very little getting done.

          Yet a vast amount gets done with my money and by my government. Likewise in France and many other countries.

          Who says invading Afghanistan was the answer? There are other answers. And I maintain a large government with an expensive intelligence and foreign affairs apparatus to figure out the best ways and apply them. They do seem to work pretty well on solutions that are good for oil corps, agricorps, banks and the like. It's not too much to expect that they should do the right thing without a specific corporate backer writing their script, and without me going there myself.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 05:12:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well yeah I was aware of that..... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        reflectionsv37

        ...which is why I used that example.

        If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

        by Bensdad on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:57:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I had a very, very bad feeling when that happened. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mali muso, reflectionsv37, marsanges

        I mean, not ascribing myself awesome powers of prediction.  But... I think people could legitimately see that as a sign of shit hitting the fan.  To use the technical terms :).

        I'm glad that we take this seriously now.  We're not perfect and history will always be able to find fault with us as a world for over-reacting or under-reacting, depending on the outcome.  But France's intervention, for all of its baggage, is better than sitting back and saying "not our problem."  (I'm inclined to keep it as a French intervention - they may be best equipped to handle this, and Hollande is no latter-day Napoleon - this intervention can be debated by reasonable people, but people accusing him of colonialism are unreasonable).

        I know that lots of people here hate any military intervention anywhere, ever, always.  But this is the right kind of military intervention.  And I won't miss any of the rebels - if they don't want to be blasted off the face of the planet, they can stop killing their own African brothers and sisters at any time.  Simple solution, really.

        Alternate histories are dangerous, but if we had intervened in Afghanistan in the '90s after the Red Army melted away, would Sept. 11th have happened?  If Clinton hadn't backed off Al Qaida after the lies about that "pharmaceutical" factory (it was much later proven that Clinton was right about it being weapons iirc), would Sept. 11th have happened?  It's easy to Monday morning quarterback and, as a child of the 80s, I recognize that I have no personal memory of Soviet Afghanistan, a memory that would give any sane person pause before sending an army into that ungovernable land.  Same goes for Bush, who of course received even more alarming warnings than Clinton did, but continued to focus on his deeply radical domestic agenda.

        Still, despite our setbacks, we get better.  We fail, sometimes horribly, but, with notable and horrible exceptions, we learn from our failures.

        "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

        by auron renouille on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 06:59:11 PM PST

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