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View Diary: Strict Gun Laws in Chicago Can’t Stem Fatal Shots (152 comments)

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  •  Australia shows that bans work (14+ / 0-)

    Local restrictions are insufficient for the reasons you cite above. We need to shut down production. Once we stop pumping 6 million+ guns into our society their numbers will start to recede.

    We need to:

    1) Repeal the 2nd amendment
    2) Ban the sale or transfer of hand guns, assault weapons, and related accessories
    3) Eliminate concealed carry permits

    You can't grow guns, shut down production and their will be millions fewer weapons on our streets just over the next year then if we don't.

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:10:19 AM PST

    •  Good luck with that. (7+ / 0-)

      We aren't Australia.

      Nor Canada.

      Nor the UK.

      Nor Germany.

      Nor Japan

      Nor New Zealand.

      We're just not.

      Last I looked.

      Cheers.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:16:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're all individuals (8+ / 0-)

        Does that mean we can't learn from others? We are not our ancestors either, does that mean history has no lessons for us? Do we all have to re-discover math for ourselves? 6 million less per year is less then 6 million per year.

        I have no idea why you posted such a ridiculous and pointless reply.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:26:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Is that Antonin Scalia? (7+ / 0-)

        That xenophobe who oft proclaims that US laws can't ever consider what works anywhere else in the world?

        Some of us believe that, humans being humans, we might just be able to adopt slightly modified versions of laws that work really well elsewhere here in the US to address a wide variety of problems.

        •  Those with the magic idea of banning all guns (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago, noway2, KenBee

          won;t like much of what I have to say.

          Those who want to arm every last soul on earth won't like much of what I have to say.

          Cheers.

          The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

          by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:39:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Pretending the only positions are extreme is lazy (8+ / 0-)

            It makes any position, even one that is only slightly less extreme then "arming every last soul on earth with a finger" seem more reasonable.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:51:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm fine with most of your ideas on mj. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevskos, Joieau

            Nor am I in favor of 'banning all guns', for the very simple reason that it's a fantasy.  I'm fine with guns as tools designed to serve the very specific legal purposes for which they exist.  Rifles that are capable of performing the duties of hunting, pistols that work at firing ranges or in personal homes.

            As Joe Scarborough, he who resembles the famous stopped clock says (paraphrased) when showing the testimony of LaPierre yesterday, 'Once you start defending high capacity clips' you sound like a nut'.  (He was mostly actually saying it about the woman who said you need assault rifles with high capacity clips to defend your children in an apartment, but I can't remember her name.)

            •  Heh. I read yesterday (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

              a statistic that police average 15 shots to bring down one 'threat', thereby explaining why it is that police shoot so many innocent bystanders in their overactive quest for bad guys.

              If police are "well trained" and spend a lot of time working on their aim at ranges, what could we expect of a frightened mother shooting at an unwelcome guest in her apartment? Let's say 29 bullets wasted (and astray) to hit the 'threat' once. How many of those astray bullets go through the paper thin walls to injure or kill her own children and her neighbors?

              I say if you need 30 rounds to hit your target once, you should probably arm yourself with something effective but less deadly - like wasp and hornet or Death Pepper spray. Then when they're down, hit 'em over the head with a frying pan so they'll still be down when the police are finally finished target practicing at the gun range and decide to arrive.

            •  I keep seeing statements like, "in personal homes" (0+ / 0-)

              Guess what.  As a nation, we are well beyond that.  It may be your dream, but it is really nothing more than an obscene fantasy.  It is time for you to wake up.

              Currently this is a state's rights issue, save the 7th circuit ruling which appear to be causing IL to go 'shall issue' with permits.  Still, there is a chance that SCOTUS could rule on this issue but only if it is challenged and SCOTUS agrees to hear the case and in order to to that, there has to be a basis on which to appeal beyond "I just don't like the ruling" and even then the courts tend to weigh heavily on each others decisions.

        •  It's not in the interest of corporations to... (0+ / 0-)

          consider what works in the human interest.

          Is that Antonin Scalia? (1+ / 0-)

          That xenophobe who oft proclaims that US laws can't ever consider what works anywhere else in the world?

          And we all know what side Scalia comes down on.

          "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." ~ Aldous Huxley

          by markthshark on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:56:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, we're not. We put guns above lives (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peterfallow, Debby, blueness, UFOH1, BlueDragon

        All those nations value their citizen's lives more than guns. We do not.

        We must have guns, even if it means our children are shot dead every day.

        We must have guns, even with "responsible, law abiding gun owners" accidentally shooting their 7 year-old dead or kids picking guns up in the street, or any of the other stories we see every day.

        We must have guns, even if our murder rates are higher.

        We must have guns, if we try to do anything about it, we'll lose votes.

        We must have guns, even if our gun culture has inculcated the idea that guns are the solution to arguments, insults, revenge, to right a wrong, to become a hero (Bernie Goetz, etc.) to solve problems.  

        Even to the point that mentally unstable people choose gun violence as a means to inflict their pain on others, and then take away their own pain by suicide.

        I mean, really, what effect has the gun culture had on our society when a woman files for divorce and her husband thinks the best solution is to get a gun, shoot the wife and kids, and then blow his own head off?

        I see your signature line, from Pulp Fiction.  What kind of society are we that gun violence is now so common that people in a movie theater laugh when the kid comes out of the bathroom shooting, misses, and then the 2 gangsters look at the wall, then turn and empty their clips into the kid? When people laugh when they are driving in the car and Jackson accidentally shoots the other kid's head off. HA HA, look, they hit a bump and he blew the kid's head off, there's brains everywhere, isn't that just too funny?

        What effect has the gun culture had when the police routinely shoot and kill unarmed people, even in the back, and the general reaction of society is "oh well, it was the guy's own fault, he knew the police had guns". After all, guns are for shooting people.

        Yes, guns are cool - I've even read RKBA diaries in which the diarist says this. Guns give people a feeling of power - and hey, what do people with power do - they use it.

        As scripture says, he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. And so it is with guns: we in the US live by the gun, and we die by the gun. And forever more shall it be.

        Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

        by absdoggy on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:57:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't have a gun. Now what? (0+ / 0-)

          The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

          by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:41:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Does this sound familiar? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness
            I need to get a dog - hoping to accomplish this in March - and a couple small shotguns.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:56:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not sure what you mean? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            UFOH1, Kevskos

            Ok, you don't have a gun. My point was that the gun culture in America places guns above people's lives, and even people who don't own guns are impacted by the gun culture.

            I'm no better - I laughed at Pulp Fiction. I sometimes have a gut reaction wish that someone would shoot the twig and berries off a child molester, or other heinous criminal (gun as a solution to the problem).

            In the military, I fired a rifle, a .50 cal gun, I know what a feeling of power it gives, although for me it also engendered a feeling of terrible and awesome responsibility.

            The gun culture is very pervasive and has led us to place the gun above human life.

            Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

            by absdoggy on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:29:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Your argument is deeply flawed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jon Says

          Travolta accidentally shot Marvin's head off, not Jackson.

          "You're miserable, edgy, and tired. You're in the perfect mood for journalism."

          by Spider Jerusalem on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:02:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  actually, we are. (5+ / 0-)

        we're just a country full of human beings, just like them. Just because you want to declare "don't look over there!" doesn't mean sensible people can't ignore you and do exactly that.

        The primary goal should be to stem the overall flow of guns in this country, and to do that we have to choke off supply. There are many ways we can start to make that happen. Making it difficult to legally buy guns - with strict background checks, and fewer retailers - will reduce the overall supply. As I just posted elsewhere, every "legitimate" gun buyer is just a straw buyer - witting or not - that is bringing a gun into a system that flows inexorably toward illegal or destructive activity.

        Choke 'em off. Track 'em all to hell, implementing new methods as they become available, so we know exactly which "legit" buyers are buying what. Pay professors to analyze the data. Then identify more choke points where the  flow can be slowed down.

      •  Not to mention the fact (0+ / 0-)

        that American arms manufacturers supply both legal and illegal weaponry to arms merchants internationally (and militaries/paramilitaries) as right up there at the top of the list of arms dealers in the world. With very few international controls on small arms (and accessories), quite a lucrative living can be made dealing to oorganized crime, paramilitary outfits, various rebels and/or "freedom fighters," etc. Thereby ensuring the government's Big Export Market to national governments and despotic regimes for their militaries and police forces. While also not really "justifying" our coveted spot at the top of the list of largest international arms exporters government-to-government. The better to keep dirty little and big wars going at all times, also not quite "justifying" the fact that we spend more on our military every year than the whole rest of the world combined.

    •  This (0+ / 0-)

      Until the racist guns are banned completely, we will live in fear from the gun nut teabaggers.

      •  If you had read the article well (0+ / 0-)

        you'd have info that you won't be safe even after the guns are banned.

        The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:33:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  actually, the article suggests that the problems (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          goObama, gramofsam1, blueness, Kevskos

          in Chicago are largely to blame on

          - lax laws in adjacent jurisdictions,

          - layered statutes among overlapping jurisdictions and

          - insufficient penalties w/in the city's own jurisdiction

          From your same article:

          “Our gun strategy is only as strong as it is comprehensive, and it is constantly being undermined by events and occurrences happening outside the city — gun shows in surrounding counties, weak gun laws in neighboring states like Indiana and the inability to track purchasing,” Mr. Emanuel said. “This must change.”

          State lawmakers, too, are soon expected to weigh new state provisions like an assault weapons ban, as Chicago already has. But the fate of the proposals is uncertain in a state with wide-open farming and hunting territory downstate.

          It seems that overarching federal regulation with penalties that are severe enough to ensure "the incentive to comply" would not only be the answer to a good deal of the CPD's frustrations, it would be the actual, underlying purpose for this NYT story.

          Again, your article:

          Many here say that even the strictest, most punitive gun laws would not alone be an answer to this city’s violence. “Poverty, race, guns and drugs — you’ve got to deal with all these issues, but you’ve got to start somewhere” said the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson, who was arrested in 2007 while protesting outside Chuck’s Gun Shop, the suburban store long known as a supplier of weapons that make their way to Chicago.

          It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

          by Murphoney on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:28:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  just like when they banned recreational drug use, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        noway2

        and that problem went away?

         or when we banned abortion and that went away?

        and when gambling was banned  and that problem went away?

        Granny Storm Crow's MMJ Reference List-686 pages of hyperlinks in PDF format Yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a gift and that's why it's called "The Present".

        by elkhunter on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:38:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  There's hard, and there's fantasy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Norm in Chicago, Kickemout, noway2

      The 2nd won't be repealed. Not. gonna. happen. Given that, your second proposal is unconstitutional. Your third might happen in limited jurisdictions, but not nationwide.

      How do you propose to shut down production? You're going to close factories and put people out of work by mandate? What about the 70-odd other countries that manufacture firearms? This goes directly to the diarist's discussion of black markets.

      I'd much rather concentrate on reducing violence in reality.

    •  No, Australia doesn't. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Norm in Chicago, johnel

      The evidence is decidedly mixed.

      You can't grow guns but they're not all that hard to make.  Assuming you shut down production (guess local, state and federal uniforms won't be needing any new stock), what's stopping those all those gunsmiths from turning to a non-compliant cottage industry?

      •  Killing themselves? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh

        Making IEDs isn't that hard either, but people who do tend to blow themselves up off and on.

        •  Killing themselves how? (0+ / 0-)

          Do you expect IIF to jump with the dispersal of gunsmiths into private practice?  Exactly how large and funneled industry is?

          •  Sorry, I don't know the jargon, what's IIF? (0+ / 0-)

            I think that if you suddenly create a large number of would be gunsmiths, there are going to be a lot of crappy quality guns created, and the number of misfires and similar problems will jump dramatically.  We have regulations about quality control on things we manufacture for a reason.

            •  Injury, illness and fatality. (0+ / 0-)

              Essentially, occupational hazards.

              Yes, we do have public regulation on how we manufacture a number of things, and gun manufacturers do come under a number of state, local and federal codes regarding how their shop is put together and run.  But there are actually no guidelines to QC in firearms manufacture itself.  Companies contracting with public agencies, law enforcement and military may be subject to certain quality controls, but to my understanding there's no agency--certainly not BATF--that regulates QC for the private market.

        •  Bullets are very simple to make (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xxdr zombiexx

          I know people who make their own bullets and shotgun shells.  Those are not high explosives.  He's never had an accident.

          An underground operation the size of a suburban pot grow house could turn out all the ammunition a gang needs.

          •  No.. see if we did a total ban (0+ / 0-)

            those people would adhere to the law.

            People are inherently good and trustworthy.

            The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

            by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:04:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  How on earth (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gramofsam1

              are individual ammunition makers going to make up for the billions of small-arms rounds mass produced by the ammo manufacturers?

              Heck, even with this immense mass production, there are still shortages, especially since Newton.

              •  Oh..... I don't know (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Norm in Chicago

                Where do we get all the drugs that we supposedly banned?

                A couple mom and pop operations?

                The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

                by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:55:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You've already fallen into a major fallacy (0+ / 0-)

                Illegal ammo makers won't need to turn out billions of rounds for law abiding gun owners, because there won't be any of those anymore.  They won't be selling boxes of bullets to go into an ammo safe and just sit there.

                The illegal bullets that will be made will only be for those who want to use guns illegally.  It doesn't take billions of bullets to keep gangs aremed.  They only have to replace what they use.

          •  I had a conversation about this with the owner (0+ / 0-)

            of a local gun store.  He said that even if it were banned to where nobody manufactured it at all that he still has the capability of and tools for making (even) armor piercing ammunition in his back room.

      •  The evidence is not mixed. (5+ / 0-)

        Guns are neither growable, nor consumable. There is no chance a "non-compliant cottage industry" would pump 6 million+ guns into the country every year. In all likelyhood the number of home made, and largely ineffective, weapons produced would be much lower then even the current black market that siphons off from the legal production we have today. And they would all be illegal meaning anyone found with one would face a large penalty.

        Law abiding citizens like Adam Lanza's mother, would be alive today. As would the other victims of the Newtown massacre.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:48:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The evidence is mixed. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xxdr zombiexx

          And I've provided a source to back me up.  You're just asserting things.

          Why couldn't a cottage industry pop up?  And why do you think home made weapons would be ineffective?  This is a device that's terribly simple to manufacture, and your current arms are the result of innovations from well over a century ago, using tooling my great grandfather would have known and understood.

          How are you going to enforce a penalty if you're disarming law enforcement?

          •  I'm not going to indulge in your fantasy (4+ / 0-)

            If you want to believe there will be some "cottage industry" making illegal firearms by the millions for Adam Lanza's mother, so be it.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 06:56:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You have to realize some are so devoted to their (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            124NewYork, KenBee

            beliefs they won't hear you.

            ID them and let 'em go.

            This is just like marijuana relegalization. Some will support, some will not, we win on election day when we have the best-written law.

            We don't need unanimity on the issue to make effective progress..

            The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

            by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:08:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good advice. Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx
            •  This is very good advice (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharon Wraight

              I agree that some people, like you, are so wedded to their faith based beliefs that they'll ignore the truth and just end up throwing insults (as you did) at anyone who dares to challenge those beliefs.

              And just as we've made rapid progress in marriage equality, I hope and expect we will make rapid progress in gun safety as people realize the fringe does not hold the sway they project and find most people agree with sensible gun control steps (such as the steps I've outlined).

              We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

              by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 09:19:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  O Erroneous One. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                KenBee

                I agree that some people, like you, are so wedded to their faith based beliefs that they'll ignore the truth  whine and howl and cry that your ideas aren't being greeted by trumpets and children with baskets of rose petals.

                And just as we've made rapid progress in marriage equality and marijuana reform, against all manner of entrenched stupidity, I hope and expect we will make rapid progress in gun safety as people realize the fringe does not hold the sway they project and find most people agree with sensible gun control steps that I believe will work.

                See you in the middle ground of reality-based discourse.

                The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

                by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 09:26:55 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Have you ever heard of a 3D printer? (0+ / 0-)
      You can't grow guns, shut down production and their will be millions fewer weapons on our streets just over the next year then if we don't.
      Guns are not mechanically or technically complicated.  The parts are not hard to make, and modern manufacturing equipment like automated 3 axis milling machines and 3D printers can turn out all the parts on a very small scale.  Hell, I know people making guns and ammo at home with very basic equipment.

      Look at the war on drugs, and the impossibility of shutting down all the suburban grow houses, and the massive amount of drugs available despite the drug bans.  If we went the route you propose, full repeal of the 2nd and the shutdown of all legal gun trade, and it goes full underground to the black market.

      Imagine suburban basement workshops turning out fully automatic weapons for gangs and criminals.  Why full auto?  Why not?  The guns are already illegal.
      Gang members won't even have to drive to a gun shop and deal with background checks.  There will be no controls of any kind, and the gangs will have a massive cash inflow to fuel expansion and turf wars.

      I am sorry, but I will never accept the creation of another massive black market.  Your war on guns will be just as massive a failure as the war on drugs.

      •  You do realize that even regular printers all have (0+ / 0-)

        hidden codes placed on everything they print so that law enforcement can identify the exact printer used to create a document, right?  That was in the news a few years back, and there's no reason to believe that capability has been removed.

        3D printers capable of creating weapons would certainly have such codes as well, and people caught creating guns that way would probably draw heavy jail time.

        •  That is so technically false (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jon Says, KenBee

          First, anything can be hacked.  Second, there is a massive technical difference between printing a micro-code on paper and etching a micro-code into hard steel.  That takes a different tool, tools that are changed out by hand.  It would be extremely trivial to prevent a 3D printer from including a hidden code.  The finished part could also be given a hand grinding surface treatment to erase any evidence.

          Third, a 3D printer simply makes the process faster and easier.  Guns were being made 300 years ago by illiterate blacksmiths.  Regular machine tools are good enough.

          Fourth, those who produce and traffic illegal drugs already face heavy jail time, and that hasn't made the War on Drugs a sucess.  The potential profit is simply far too large, and there are a lot of desperate poor people out there.

          The point is, I don't want to give the gangs another high profit product to sell.  And neither should you, because then the gun trade will be fully out of control.

          •  I have no problem with the guns being made (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness, KenBee

            300 years ago. You want to sit in your basement making that shit, go right ahead.

            You build a factory sophisticated enough to produce AR15s on a mass scale without the notice of the government? Good luck.

            I grew up in Humboldt County, California. I know what a grow house looks like. They are crude, messy affairs and do not require the technical skill involved in mass producing powerful, modern weapons.

            Guns and drugs are radically different objects. False analogy.

            •  And those houses were spawned and nurtured (0+ / 0-)

              by law enforcement's jihad against the plant they grew illegally.

              Now when we legalize it, the illegal shit will wane.

              When we illegalize it, the illegal shit increases.

              Rather predictably.

              The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

              by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:15:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The AR-15 is about 5% of homicides (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jon Says, KenBee

              A gun like the AR-15 is not radically more lethal than a handgun, and an AR-15 is not easily concealed.  It won't be sophisticated and overly complicated combat weapons that are produced underground.  It will be very simple handguns and ammo.  And no, it doesn't take a massive factory to keep a gang armed.

              Plus, we have not been able to dent the drug shipments from overseas.  The weapons will just come in the same way.

              More money, more gangs, more crime, more illegal guns.  That's the path prohibition sends us down.

              •  Your conclusion does not follow your premise (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sharon Wraight

                We have all the problems you outline. Stopping the influx of millions or more guns per year does not lead to "More money, more gangs, more crime, more illegal guns". It leads  to the opposite.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 10:31:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  ww2 british Sten guns were stamped products (0+ / 0-)
              The Sten used simple stamped metal components and minor welding, which required a minimum of machining and manufacturing. Much of the production could be performed by small workshops, with the firearms assembled at the Enfield site. Over the period of manufacture the Sten design was further simplified: the most basic model, the Mark III, could be produced from five man-hours work. Some of the cheapest versions were made from only 47 different parts.
              from the wiki...that's a fully automatic weapon.

              Cranked out, 4 million, during wartime under attack.

              There are villages in Italy that specialize in the parts to accordians, a very complicated instrument, moreso than a Sten gun. You can go to Pakistan and watch a gun being made in a roadside stall.
                  Not quite mass production, but none the less lethal.

              And you are right about grow houses, I am living in one, Humco former grow house and still finding 'product'. And wiring, and whatever it iskinda stuff.

              This machine kills Fascists.

              by KenBee on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:31:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I wasn't talking 'etching a microcode' (0+ / 0-)

            And I'm guessing that most of your wannabe gun makers are technically ignorant, not hackers.

            The vast majority of Americans are barely able to operate their computers, much less 'hack' things.

          •  wasn't basically everyone illiterate 300 yrs ago? (0+ / 0-)

            didn't make them stupid, untrained nor untalented.

            It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

            by Murphoney on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:03:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  And the threat of jail time (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee

          prevents virtually all criminal activity.

          The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

          by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:45:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Threat? I'm not talking 'threat' (0+ / 0-)

            Or 'deterrent'.  I'm talking a) tracking down the makers after a crime is committed, and b) keeping them out of society longer.

            But whatever.  this will be my last comment in the diary, I simply don't agree with your beliefs in this case, nor in any chance that either of us will 'convert' the other.

            •  No we are not going to agree (0+ / 0-)

              but......it would be nice if we could shut the barn door BEFORE the horse escape though... wouldn't it?

              I'm talking a) tracking down the makers after a crime is committed, and b) keeping them out of society longer.

              The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

              by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 11:33:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  dude, they are letting violent felons out early! (0+ / 0-)

              cause of, you know, no money....really fucking crazy ones with tattoos all over their heads and faces, no sense of decency, and it is not long before they start the same old shit.

              People beliefs in the Magic Justice System™ sounds like a late night commercial with a fast talking British pitchman.

              The system has been fucked, purposefully I think, so we can all run around in circles while they steal even more pension plans and prevent any real climate crisis changes for one.

              This machine kills Fascists.

              by KenBee on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:36:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  LOL (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peterfallow, blueness

        the fantasy crowd here is hilarious.

        If this is in fact true, why isn't it happening in all the strict gun control countries already? Hmmmmm?

    •  iu - good luck (0+ / 0-)

      At the moment a new AWB can't even pass the Senate.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:38:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Seriously, now, what you propose (0+ / 0-)

      is not going to happen and you know it.

      Repeal the 2nd.  Please.  Seriously.  Please.  That would require the approval of 3/4 of the states and that isn't going to happen.

      Ban the sale of guns and accessories.   Well, you would need to repeal the 2nd first.  Then you would also need to get each state that has an equivalent statement in their respective constitutions to do the same.  Then lets assume you implement a ban.  Guess what, you will STILL have manufacturing and sale of guns because people will be making them in private shops.

      Eliminate carry permits.  Carry permits are a state issue.  You would need to go state by state and get all states to agree.  Some states have declared constitutional carry.  What about those.  In fact, I used to be a supporter of national carry.  Seeing how gun grabbers like you talk and apparently think, I have changed my mind and now join the Conservatives on this issue that it needs to remain a state issue.

      So after all of the above, you will still have people carrying and using guns illegally.  Some would still do so illegally for their own protection claiming that it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.  The others, will be criminals who will now be more empowered than ever because their job descriptions just got a lot easier.

      •  "gun grabbers" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight

        Nice NRA talking point, your republican colleagues would be proud.

        Exactly what did I say that consituted "gun grabbing"? My answer would be nothing.

        It's odd that you take the position that it's a state issue, but the fact is the only way to make it a State issue is to repeal the 2nd amendment. That was just demonstrated in DC, and Illinois who have been prevented from implementing their own sensible gun control laws. So I guess you're really on board with repealing the 2nd. That's great.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:27:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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