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View Diary: Israeli Security Chief and Holocaust survivor compares Israel to Nazi Germany (173 comments)

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  •  Stop HRing, please! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WattleBreakfast

    I've read the diary and comments and think this is one of the more thoughtful discussions about this issue that I've seen on DKos. We have to be able to discuss difficult issues without getting extreme ourselves -- without HRing, without banning or threatening to ban. I really want to watch this documentary now and I and everyone else who watches will be better educated about the issue once they've seen it. That's the best of all outcomes, no?  

    The civil rights, gay rights and women's movements, designed to allow others to reach for power previously grasped only by white men, have made a real difference, and the outlines of 21st century America have emerged. -- Paul West of LA Times

    by LiberalLady on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:01:37 PM PST

    •  I really want to see the documentary myself (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      as I think it will be fascinating to see what the Shin Bet chiefs have to say, and I really hope it helps to sway Israeli public opinion to the left (maybe these past elections offer some hope)

      However, with so much that one can talk about with respect to this documentary, the fact that the diarist felt that it was of paramount importance to lead with the Israel/Nazi-in-the-same-sentence nonsense greatly discredits the discussion.

      Posts like that are posted with an agenda--NOT to educate.

      The documentary, on the other hand, I hope will educate.

    •  There are a number of clips from the ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1, bevenro

      ... documentary available from one of the links at the top of this diary.  If you watch the interview with the director of the film you will see that he is clearly uncomfortable with the tenor of the interviewers, in fact he says as much during the interview - more than once.  To make the point even finer, the director doesn't even think that this is the most "shocking" line in his movie, and the interviewers don't seem to take issue with that statement.

      Having watched the interview it strikes me that the line in question isn't even shown in the interview.  The director does say that the line is in his documentary, and describes his own reaction to the statement.  The only context presented (and it is used in a self-serving manner by the diarist, including in the headline) is that the man who made the comment was a Holocaust survivor.  We don't know the rest of his thought or what prompted the statement.

      To me, the issue with this diary (and the conclusions the diarist is making) is that it is based on a single line from the documentary with no context.  On this site we rail against "the other side" taking our President's comments out of context and building a case from that.  A recent and notable example is "You didn't build that".  The same thing is being done here, however, I feel that the issue involved makes this kind of argument much more dangerous.

      I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

      by Hey338Too on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 11:50:35 AM PST

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      •  I've provided as much context as I possibly could (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sophie Amrain

        in the diary and in the comments without stealing his script and publishing it in its entirety on this site.

        I'm really not sure what you want from me.

        •  The issue here, is that you wrote an entire... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          ... diary about a single, possibly paraphrased or taken out of context, sentence in a 96 minute documentary.  The Goodman interview doesn't even provide a clip of Avraham Shalom's comment.  From the interview's transcript, here's the actual setup:

          AARON MATÉ: Well, we certainly aren’t here to debate the history with you, but we are trying to portray your film, and your movie has some very powerful statements that should be highlighted. You know, you have Avraham Shalom saying something like—a line like: "[We’ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II."

          DROR MOREH: Yeah.

          AARON MATÉ: "We have become cruel, to ourselves as well, but mainly to the occupied population, using the excuse of the war against terror."

          DROR MOREH: Yes.

          AARON MATÉ: That’s in your movie, and it’s very powerful.

          DROR MOREH: Absolutely, I’m not—yeah, I’m not saying that it’s not in the movie. Well, I did that movie; believe me, I know every sentence that is inside that movie. What I felt is that when you portray that as the Palestinians are people that are sitting there, you know, and not doing anything, it’s not the reality on the ground. And by that, you have to show both sides, because I think that when you do that, you portray only one side. And I said that before. It’s—you have to be balanced. And this is something that I felt that is not so much here.

          Did you notice that Mate's quote about the Shalom statement starts with "saying something like—a line like"?  

          So here's the deal.  You don't know exactly what the Holocaust survivor said.  You don't know WHY the Holocaust survivor said "something like" the Holocaust survivor was purported to have said because you don't know what the Holocaust survivor was asked.  Nor do you know what the Holocaust survivor said immediately before or after this purported statement.  But you decided none of that made a difference, wrote a diary about it and attributed a definitive statement by the Holocaust survivor in your title.

          And then you bash people for questioning your use of a Holocaust survivor's comment.  And, on top of that, you freaking HR a person (who you should apologize to) in your own diary.  You ask me what I want from you with regard to providing context.  If Pat Buchanan attributed this statement to Shalom would you have run with that?

          Did you read or watch the interview?  I've done both.  I did both before I made my first comment in your diary.  Did you hear the director of the film admonish both Mate and Goodman multiple times during the interview for not being balanced?  Did that make an impression on you?  It did for me.  That's why I questioned the context of the statement, and your use of the statement to draw any conclusions.

          So, we'll let Moreh have the last word (who is the only one of us who actually knows what was said and has SEEN THE MOVIE).

          DROR MOREH: I think that the last elections have proven that the Israeli public is much more smarter than the leaders. I think that—the way that I look at it, Netanyahu wanted to do that. Netanyahu wanted, before the elections, to move towards the extreme right, but the Israeli public said to him very, very clearly, "You cannot do that. You have to go to the center." And by voting 19 members of the Knesset to the new—there is a future group. They told him very clearly, "You are the only candidate now in Israel. There is nobody who—there’s nobody who opposes you. So—but you cannot do that with the far extreme right; you have to go to the center."

          And this is what seems to be the case now. He’s negotiating with this center parties, and I hope that this was what happen. I don’t have any trust in Netanyahu. Netanyahu, for me, is something that is the most dangerous person in terms of the peace and in terms of Israel. But I think that the Israeli public have sent him a very clear message in that election.

          How does that square with the conclusion you made?

          I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

          by Hey338Too on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 09:22:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Talk about not providing context (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sophie Amrain

            You cut out his reaction to shalom's comments.  I did provide the full context unlike you with his reaction here:
            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Moreh, said it was a blow to the gut.  So clearly he took the meaning of shalom's statement the same way Mate did.

            Its bizarre you would talk about context the cut out moreh's reaction.

            •  I'm calling BS on your circular logic... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1

              ... this is YOUR diary and you expect the readers to do more work than you with regard to determining the facts you present.

              I've added an HR to your tip jar for this diary.  Two days ago I gave you the benefit of the doubt.  Today it is apparent that you simply wanted to create a firestorm.  bevenro was correct.

              I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

              by Hey338Too on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 08:39:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm pretty sure you are violating HR rules at this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sophie Amrain

                point.  You are HR'ing me now because I made you look silly in a petty argument.

                •  ROTFLMAO... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1

                  Your comment:

                  At least the hyper-pro-Israel crowd doesn't try
                  to hide their support for war crimes anymore.  I guess there is something to be said for honesty... I guess.
                  Says it all.

                  I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

                  by Hey338Too on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:31:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Heh... speaking of Violating rules (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hey338Too

                  You ummm... might not want to spout off regarding violating rules considering this:

                  ah yes, it's the old ' Hey--a holocaust survivor (5+ / 6-)

                  Recommended by: volleyboy1, BFSkinner, livosh1, JNEREBEL, Hey338Too

                  Hidden by:Obamalover20122, sturunner, MadRuth, edrie, alain2112, WattleBreakfast

                  Considering that you have been sitting in violation of the rule for HR'ing comments in your own diary. Really, if you are going to lecture someone regarding following the rules... You shouldn't violate them yourself.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:35:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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