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View Diary: FYI : "Ultimate Guide to the Gun Safety Debate" (71 comments)

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  •  then you have nothing to fear (6+ / 0-)

    from gun control. but many of the type of people who follow lapierre are exactly as i described.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:05:03 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  and I don't, it's now obvious "gun control" is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      124NewYork, FrankRose

      going absolutely nowhere. All I fear is electing Dems to enact laws. Like for health care or to reduce income inequality.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:19:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hogwash (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      124NewYork, noway2, andalusi

      There are many that wants as many firearms banned as they can.
      'Assault weapons' are used in less less murders than clubs, five times less murders than knives & less than half of the murders than bare hands are. If you are willing to ban 'assault weapons', you are willing to ban far more.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:21:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  gun control is inevitable (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber, mungley

        and because people like me might not win the politics now, people who want to ban a lot more than i do will prevail later.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:46:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Clairvoyance. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          noway2

          Less than convincing.

          I'm afraid I find your "give up your liberties or we'll take even more" threat unconvincing as well.
          If you want to take the liberties of innocent Americans, I'm afraid you will have to try to take them.
          Good luck with that.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:15:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i'm afraid i (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, mungley

            like the vast majority of people in the world, and probably in this country, find your concept of liberty unconvincing.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:30:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Its not "my concept of liberty"... (0+ / 0-)

              It is the English language's definition of liberty.....words have meanings, those meanings don't change simply because you are uncomfortable with their definitions.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:53:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  funny thing (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber, mungley

                the english definition doesn't include any references to guns.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:10:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nor does it specifically mention any liberty. (0+ / 0-)

                  I assume you understand how word definitions & the English language works.
                  Act like it.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:44:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hilarious (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mungley

                    you're the one parsing and interpreting and placing on the word meanings that not only don't exist but that aren't even commonly used. but do keep trying.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:59:43 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The dictionary leaves no room for 'interpritation' (0+ / 0-)

                      Do I really have to post the definition for you?

                      For now, let's go with your asinine tact at understanding word meanings....
                      Dogs aren't specifically mentioned in the definition of animal. Apparently dogs aren't animals.
                      Steven Hawking isn't specifically mentioned in the definition of scientist....
                      Oak trees aren't specifically mentioned in the definition of plant....
                      Guns aren't specifically mentioned in the definition of banned....
                      Murder/theft isn't specifically mentioned in the definition of illegal....
                      You nor I aren't  specifically mentioned in the definition of people....

                      You've really introduced a new & exciting method of defining words.
                      Hat's off to you.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 12:21:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  these pretzels into which you twist yourself (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mungley, Recall

                        must be painful. all those specifics are according to accreditation and/or common usage. liberty does not by either include guns any more than it includes driving race cars or possessing nuclear arms. i know this is hard. but do keep convincing no one but yourself. you are an exemplar of why there will eventually be gun control.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 12:27:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Then let us look at the meaning of the word.... (0+ / 0-)

                          Liberty--NOUN:
                                 1) a) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
                                     b) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
                                  2) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
                                 3)A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights"---American Heritage Dictionary.

                          What is gun control, if not "restriction and control"?
                          But don't let the dictionary stand in your way. Continue your one man assault on the English language. You're really starting to turn the tide on it, big-shooter.

                          "you are an exemplar of why there will eventually be gun control."
                          Clairvoyance....nice.
                          However, as the AWB hasn't, nor will pass....what would that make you an example of? (Other than clairvoyant & the preeminent dictionary fighter in the nation, of course)

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:05:56 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  gosh (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Recall

                            i still see nothing in there about guns. do keep trying.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:10:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't see any specific liberty mentioned.... (0+ / 0-)

                            Apparently there are no liberties.

                            Truly a devastating refute.
                            Touche, worthy adversary.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:25:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  common usage, frank (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Recall, Bindle

                            and guess what- only in your insular gun culture does your interpretation apply. a tiny fraction of the english speaking world. and of course, that same wingnut supreme court that gave you your constitutional right also thinks money is speech, so being able to buy elections also is a liberty. enjoy!

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:33:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It was you that insisted a liberty has to be (0+ / 0-)

                            specifically mentioned to be a liberty.

                            I (and the rest of the English speaking world) realize that gun ownership is, in fact, a liberty enjoyed by Americans.

                            But do keep up on your personal crusade against the dictionary.
                            I'm pulling for you, Tiger!

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:14:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  keep looking, frank (0+ / 0-)

                            you'll find that word in there some day. really.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:38:07 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

    •  No, they're not. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrankRose, andalusi

      Not even LaPierre is exactly as you described, here and elsewhere.  And that's why you're losing this debate.

      •  we're losing the politics, not the debate (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber, mungley

        the public backlash will not be to your liking. gun control will happen, and the failures now will lead to much more restrictive measures later. demographics are destiny.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:42:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It may happen. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          noway2, FrankRose, andalusi

          And it may not be to my liking, I freely acknowledge that.  But it won't be because of the strength of the gun control lobb'ys arguments.  It will be because of the complacency of gun owners who, fat and happy off a decade of legislative and judicial triumphs, stood by and let it happen.  In some ways I'm thankful that your side is so fired up; it keeps us on our toes and forces us to examine our weaknesses.

          Demography may ultimately determine destiny, but demographic trends can change.

          •  the evolution of humanity (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, DeadHead, mungley

            suggests the trends. among developed democracies, we are an anomaly. we won't always be one. and the demographic trends are proving that.

            i don't think gun owners have ever been fat and happy with their victories. the main weakness of the opponents of gun control is their intransigence. moderate, sensible, effective gun control now, or something much more severe later. it's inevitable.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:22:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let's not abuse evolutionary biology in pursuit of (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose, andalusi

              white whales.

              Americans relationship with firearms is unique, period; developed country or no (fun fact, there is no correlation between level of gun ownership and gun violence incidence).  It's a lot easier to disarm a populace that was never widely armed in the first place, and its a lot easier to abuse your people (as revealed in the experience of undeveloped countries).

              I'm sure you find gun owners' "intransigence" personally frustrating, but that is not objectively a weakness.  You must acknowledge a decade of irrefutable legislative and judicial success and explain how it occurred in spite "intransigence" rather than because of it.

              •  actually (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber, DeadHead, Recall

                having a gun in the home increases the odds of someone in the home suffering a violent death. that's not exactly a secret, despite congress having shut down nih research.

                we are not an undeveloped country. developed countries do fine without guns. there aren't mass movements in any of them to relax their gun laws. funny how that works.

                a decade of legislative and judicial losses might have to do with a decade of political losses, and that no one was really fighting the nra. that has changed. the politics is changing. demographics also are dooming the republican party.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:33:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Pure myth. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  noway2, FrankRose

                  There is no evidence of elevated risk from keeping a gun in the home.  Also, if Congress shut down federal gun research, how is it the President can order its resumption without an act of Congress?

                  Define "developed."  As best as I can tell, you're arbitrarily restricting the dataset to OECD nations.

                  Brady Campaign, VPC, and Mayors against Illegal Guns weren't fighting the NRA?

                •  Then choose to not own a gun. (0+ / 0-)

                  And let others make their choice as well.
                  Freedom is pretty neat like that.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:47:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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