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View Diary: Obese Airline Passenger Dies of Kidney Failure Trying to Get Home to Doctor: Lawsuit Filed (847 comments)

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  •  First off, let's leave the LGBT community (30+ / 0-)

    out of this. Please. Your mention of that is not helpful, and frankly, weakens your argument.

    What happened to this lady is horrible. What is also horrible is the automatic judgement some people make about people who are severely overweight, some of whom actually have medical conditions they can't help having.

    Frankly, the American obsession with body size and shape is disgusting. You're right: there needs to be less judgment and more dialogue.

    What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

    by commonmass on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:41:57 AM PST

    •  bigotry is bigotry is it not? (19+ / 0-)

      maybe you can explain why it's different.

      "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

      by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:44:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  commonmass, you're the last person I'd (30+ / 0-)

      want to argue with about LGBT issues.  But let me gently suggest that I thought the diarist's mention was not offensive.  

      The way I read it, she is saying that being gay is comparable to being obese, in the sense that both attributes are intrinsic, not a matter of moral choices.  Both groups deserve tolerance.  I think that's right.

      •  I think it is too which is why (21+ / 0-)

        I am suggesting that she revise it. Along the lines of "we're all in this together" rather than "I resent the advances others have made" which is how I read that in the diary. I'm trying to be helpful, because I'm probably not alone in my opinion and some others may not be as nice.

        What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

        by commonmass on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:53:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Being obese is NOT intrinsic (3+ / 3-)
        Recommended by:
        ffour, cmoreNC, tommymet
        Hidden by:
        radical simplicity, BlackSheep1, Bronx59

        Seriously.  This morbidly obese person who eats well and exercises regularly that fat people like to invoke is like a unicorn.  Sure, there's people who genetically are thicker and keep on an extra 20 pounds or whatever, but once you can't fit in an airplane seat anymore, that's a lifestyle choice you have made.

        In any case, this is an awful comparison and will only serve to bring scorn on LGBT people.

          •  If you find medical facts mean, so be it (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cmoreNC, Deward Hastings

            Calories in < calories out = you get skinnier.  It's a very simple formula and has nothing to do with your genetics.  You saying I'm "mean" for acknowledging that affects me the same way as a right winger telling me I'm a heathen for acknowledging the theory of evolution.

            •  That's incredibly naive and plainly false. (16+ / 0-)

              Even if you pride yourself on being a "rationalist."

              In fact, that's an irrational prejudice.

            •  You are being rude (15+ / 0-)

              and you have no clue. The bottom line is you don't live in their body, unless you are their doctor you do not get an opinion about any other persons health or lack of health, period.

              You sound like someone blessed with a healthy body and think that you can take 100 percent credit for said health. I hope you never have to find out how wrong that belief is, the more you type the stupider you look.

            •  It. is. NOT. that. simple. (21+ / 0-)

              Frankly, that gross equation of "Calories in < calories out = you get skinnier" is reductionist oversimplification of an extremely complex set of problems . See diary on Reductionism and than ask yourself how many ways you buy into it.

              All calories are NOT created equal, and this has been well-known for at least fifty years (or even longer). The first person to put it into writing was Dr. William Banting - in 1863.

              What makes it even more complicated is that what works for one person won't work for the next. It's not only what you eat, but also when you eat, how you eat, and even why you eat. It generally takes a lot of trial and error to come up with a regimen that works (for you) and can be adhered to over the long haul.

              If it's
              Not your body,
              Then it's
              Not your choice
              And it's
              None of your damn business!

              by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:21:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  one of the most common comments (12+ / 0-)

                I have seen made by lay doctors who like to rationalize their own fat-hatred is "I bet if I locked you in a jail cell and fed you three square meals a day you'd lose weight."  gotta love people who believe their own bodies are the template for everyone's.  And I used to wonder if they really thought that was a good way to handle public policy when they are so sensitive to the individual privacy rights of non-fat people.

                "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:23:30 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  if I was locked in jail... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  ...and fed 3 square meals a day I know for a fact I would gain weight.  Just saying.

                  We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                  by delver rootnose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:56:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Not to Mention: Prison? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  "If I locked you in a jail cell?" Why on earth would anyone's metaphor of choice involve throwing someone in prison? It's difficult to avoid assuming that a person who would suggest such a "remedy" felt that punitive measures are appropriate.

                  I do understand that no one on this thread has actually suggested that, metaphorically or not, so this example is  somewhat hypothetical. But if I heard someone say, "I'll bet if I sent you to a medically-supervised health spa where you received nutritional counseling; developed meal and fitness programs based on your individual profile (including a review of the aspects of your life that cannot be changed); and participated in therapeutic stress-reduction activities that might include massage, meditation, gentle stretching and/or yoga routines; your overall well-being would probably improve, with weight loss as a possible-to-likely accompaniment," I'd be more likely to believe that person was motivated by caring and concern, rather than disgust and moral preening.

                  But even such gentle, individual- and life-affirming measures (which are frequently an option for the wealthy) would not "work" for everyone. When I hear people saying things like, "Everyone has failings; why, even thin people like myself have character flaws . . . " I can't help thinking of Ebenezer Scrooge's helpful attitude toward improving the lot of the poor.

                  Thanks to denial, I'm immortal. -- Philip J. Fry

                  by IamGumby on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 10:01:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  William Banting was not a doctor (0+ / 0-)

                He was an undertaker.


                A weapon that is also a treasure is certain to be used.

                by wonderful world on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 05:42:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  My bad, there was also a doctor by that name (0+ / 0-)

                  so sue me. :-P

                  Anyway, he figured out what worked for him regarding weight loss, wrote it all down, got it published (had to pay for it himself IIRC), and other people read it and found out it worked for them too.

                  Doesn't work for everyone - but then nothing does.

                  If it's
                  Not your body,
                  Then it's
                  Not your choice
                  And it's
                  None of your damn business!

                  by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 07:00:33 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Except that it's not true (15+ / 0-)

              An entire branch of my family tree is populated by the "unicorns" you claim don't exist. They eat less than most people, eat better than most people, and still gain weight, regardless of exercise. Your claim is ill-informed ... at best.

            •  Wrong (6+ / 0-)

              The calories in/calories out bs is nonsense, thought up by an American government official who ignored two centuries of scientific research on food diets. The real problem is carbs. I eat a ton of calories a day, way more than the daily recommended amount, but I eat very few carbs. Because of this, I don't gain weight.

              Go to Egypt or other countries still struggling with horrific poverty today (or even really poor areas in the US) and you will see a ton of obese adults but children who look like they are starving. It's because a lot of those countries subsidize bread (or in the case of the US, the cheapest food is full of carbs), so these people are mostly eating little more than carbs.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:56:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sigh...carbs, so good so cheap and so bad. (7+ / 0-)

                Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                by Smoh on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:11:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Since being diagnosed with diabetes I've had to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas

                  give up macaroni & cheese.  Painful.

                  •  So difficult to give up comfort food. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I'm currently trying to make chicken and dumplings without the dumplings.

                    Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                    by Smoh on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:39:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  :( (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Timaeus, Smoh

                    That's terrible. Mac & Cheese is one of my ultimate comfort foods. On the other hand, I am friends with someone who has never had it in her life. I seriously don't get it.

                    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                    by moviemeister76 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:59:45 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Low carb Dreamfields (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus, Smoh

                  My highest recommendations to Dreamfield Pasta. This stuff is the real deal, it tastes as good as or better than real pasta. I lost 70lbs in 2005-06 on a strict Atkins diet and this pasta saved my sanity.

                  I'm extremely carb sensitive now, I'm hypoglycemic and have to watch what I eat. High blood sugar is a slow killer, low blood sugar can kill you quick. A few months ago I had a sugar drop that left me unconscious, I have to be very careful.

                  This pasta doesn't raise my sugar levels, there is no up and then down spike. When I was on Atkins it kept me on track, now it keeps me level. The best part is that it's indistinguishable from regular pasta, I serve it to others and they never know until I tell them. Try it!

                  "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                  by high uintas on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:39:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thank you!! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    high uintas

                    Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                    by Smoh on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:40:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Interesting. I'm checking it out. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    high uintas, Smoh

                    As a type 2 diabetic, I'd love to be able to eat pasta.

                    The Dreamfields site is very interesting and inspiring.

                    Googling "dreamfields pasta reviews," however, I see there are a lot of sites claiming this is a scam.  Sigh.  I will read all of those, and also check it out.

                    For me, of course, the proof is in the daily blood glucose checks, and how I feel.

                    Thanks for this comment.

                    By the way, every time I see your nick, I think of old-time Baltimore Colts hall-of-fame quarterback Johnny Unitas.  I've probably said that before.

                    And you're so right about the difference between low blood sugar and high blood sugar.  Myself, I've tended very high, but never low.  But my poor father, in his 80s, came to the brink of death a few months ago when his blood sugar dropped to 21 and he went into coma.  The doctors had him on high-dose Metformin PLUS high-dose Glipizide.  I myself got off the Metformin and have refused the doctor's attempt to strong-arm me into taking Glipizide.  For the moment I can control it with D&E.  (Sorry to be so long-winded.)

              •  The Italian diet is full of carbs ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                ... and according to the oecd their obesity rate is about 1/3 of ours.

                They also have a statistically older population.

                I'm new to the obesity debate, do you have any studies you could point me towards that make the carb argument / say that calories do not matter?

                Note - I am not claiming that obesity is just a willpower problem. I know and love obese people and hate the thought of them being judged. I am, however, interested in seeing how it really works.

                ‎"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine

                by jobobo on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:35:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Italian diet isn't full of sugar (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Capt Morgan, Timaeus

                  and they use a lot more olive oil than butter, especially in the south (the lactose line bisects Italy, and many South Italians are lactose-intolerant).

                  They also eat a lot of cheese, particularly hard cheese (usually grated), veggies, beans, and enough meat to flavor the spaghetti sauce, or a little more on special occasions.

                  So while they do eat a lot of pasta, it isn't all they eat.

                  If it's
                  Not your body,
                  Then it's
                  Not your choice
                  And it's
                  None of your damn business!

                  by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:08:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No GMOs in Italy (yet), for the most part (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    They are trying to sell HFCS: I saw a lot of ads for products aimed at kids, like yogurt, raving about how healthful "fruttosio" is. As processed snacks (Italian version of Twinkies/HoHos) proliferate over the old-fashioned bread and olive oil or bread, butter and sugar I did see younger kids starting to have weight issues.

                  •  Also, in Italy, much lower consumption of soda (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Coca-cola is still trying very very hard to be as ubiquitous in Italy as it is in the US, but Italians are only mildly interested. The sodas they sell have been up until recent years still the small sizes (6-8oz. recently been bumped up to 10-12 oz. in some places). There aren't any "Big Gulps", at any rate, which would be seen as freakish and bizarre.

                    Italians also don't have cupholders in their cars or affixed to their shopping carts or their folding chairs!! They do drink a lot of bottled water, however. And espressos w/real sugar.

                    I think the HFCS is a big culprit.
                    Italian Coke = real sugar at least as of this past year.

                •  The body is actually incredibly complex, such that (9+ / 0-)

                  you just can't boil down anything to a one size fits all aphorism.  Some foods are more easily digestible, such that you process more of the calories they contain.  Some actually require metabolic pathways that expend more calories in processing them than others.   Some people have endocrine-related (or other) conditions that allow them to store extra water weight ("3rd spacing") that isn't fat, but also isn't easy to keep off.

                  'In general'  (ie, not in all cases, but for many) a far lower intake of carbohydrates than is generally recommended by 'dietary pyramids' and the like results in a shift in the primary metabolic pathways used to supply energy to the body from more of a carb/sugar based path to a fat-based path.

                  I was morbidly obese back in June of last year.  Since then, by severely limiting my carb intake, I've dropped over 25% of my body weight, with an eventual goal of dropping 45% of my initial bodyweight after 1 year.  My weight loss is actually low-calorie as well as low-carb, because one of the side effects of a low carb, higher protein diet is that the longer digestive times required for proteins and fats keep my blood sugar more even and decreases my overall hunger longer, so that I don't have the urges to 'graze' when a sugar high wears off.

                  Still, such a diet doesn't work for everyone, and is also rougher on the kidneys, and can be contraindicated in the presence of other medical conditions involving the kidneys and urinary tract.

                  •  Important - DRINK A LOT OF WATER (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Timaeus, vcmvo2, moviemeister76

                    It's very important to drink a lot of water when eating low carb

                  •  Dr E B RN, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Do you follow the Atkins diet, or just cut out as many carbs as possible?

                    I have been disabled for awhile, and as time passes, the less I can move around, and the more I weigh.

                    Eating less is not helping, but I do eat carbs.

                    Admit it, you've tried to control things with the power of your mind.

                    by magicsister on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:27:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't follow any particular diet. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      magicsister, Smoh

                      Never read the Atkins book.  But I use '' to help me track my intake when I'm not losing like I should.

                      I don't exercise at all, really.  You can still lose weight by altering what you eat to decrease the number of hunger pangs that make you want to eat more.  From what I've seen from other people on the diet sites, a lot of 'regular' meals, even from people trying to eat healthy include hundreds of grams of carbs a day.  

                      I try to keep mine between 50g a day and 10g a day.  (You need a minimum amount each day to keep your brain working well; your body can't produce what it needs for brain needs entirely without carbs, unless it starts destroying muscle tissue to scavenge alanine.)  

                      With those low amounts, I'm almost never hungry, so my total calories per day drops like a rock simply because I don't bother to eat as much.  If anything, unless I deliberately go out to get some sugar every so often, I lose too fast.  

                      I'm starting to get saggy skin because I'm old enough that my skin elasticity has decreased, and it can't shrink as fast as the rest of me.  So I've had to start rubbing in vitamin E and using exfoliants to get off dead layers, and get the skin to regrow tighter and smaller...

                      I just added another, much longer explanation of blood sugar in a comment elsewhere in the thread, so if you can find it, it might help out a bit with understanding what's going on inside.

                      You do want to try to do some exercises just to stay as mobile as possible, though.  The less you move, the stiffer your sinews will get, and the less you'll be able to move.  So even doing what stretches you can is a good idea, even if you're not trying to build muscle mass, but just to maintain what limited mobility you have.

                      •  Thank you for responding, Dr Bloodaxe RN. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, Smoh

                        This sounds like something I could do.

                        I do stretches, just haven't been regimented about it.

                        Found your other comment.

                        You helped me today. Thank you.

                        Admit it, you've tried to control things with the power of your mind.

                        by magicsister on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 08:16:01 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  A caution. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          Before you go gung ho on a low carb diet, you should check in with a doctor, and even possibly have your kidney function evaluated.  You'll be peeing a lot, and probably putting out more protein than usual - the greater the percentage of protein in your diet, the harder your kidneys are worked.  High protein in a diet is contraindicated if you have low kidney function, or even issues with a history of hematuria or glomuleronephritis, a disease that affects the tiny little pockets in the kidneys where fluids and salts are exchanged and concentrated to be excreted.

                          I also take multivitamins (when I remember) to make sure I'm catching all of the minerals I might miss out on with limiting my dietary intake overall, although, really, anybody eating a lot of processed food might have vitamin deficiencies anyway...

                          •  I have an appt. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

                            with my Dr. on the 14th.

                            With physical issues, I am always careful.

                            Bad about forgetting  to take vitamins. I take many meds everyday but forget the vitamins.

                            Almost never eat processed foods. I'm a pretty decent cook and processed tastes like plastic or cardboard or worse these days.

                            Not a spring chicken enough to run out gung-ho on much, but you are lovely for expressing your concern. Thank you.

                            I hope you continue to do as well as it sounds you are.

                            Admit it, you've tried to control things with the power of your mind.

                            by magicsister on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 12:44:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Two words: (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus, vcmvo2, howabout, USHomeopath

                  olive oil.

                  Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                  by a gilas girl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 11:49:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  There is a ton of research, but.. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

        's easier to start with a book that pulls it together.

                  I would recommend Why We Get Fat. It's full of good research going back quite a ways. The book also has some recommendations for further research.

                  What is interesting about the book is that he actually does not endorse any specific diet, though he talks about several. He primarily talks about the scientific research that had been done for a couple of centuries on human diets, and why it was disregarded in the 1960s/1970s.

                  Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                  by moviemeister76 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:58:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe tone is "mean" but formula is correct (0+ / 0-)

              I remember during the summer a member posted about her struggles with weight and how she had overcome a lot of it through exercise etc. But she mentioned how the basic caloric formula is twisted, and people called her out on it because it goes against the science of our body's energy processes.

            •  Nonsense (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, vcmvo2

              Calories in / Calories out does not work.  Notice there are no studies that show low calorie diets allowing long term weight loss.

              Low carb and atkins type diets are pretty much the only diets shown to work in studies

            •  the statment is not... (0+ / 0-)

              ...based in science and ignores all the related information relating to genetics, pollution, lifestyle, portion sizes, food sources, growth hormones. etc etc.

              Way to simplistic.

              We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

              by delver rootnose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:54:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  You DO NOT gain weight except by excess calories (0+ / 0-)

            ...regardless of any medical condition.  It's literally thermodynamically impossible to gain weight except by cumulative intake of more calories from food than the body needs to burn to sustain basic metabolism.  It is true that some people are more susceptible to gaining weight from eating caloric intake in excess of the amount needed to sustain their basic metabolism + activity level, while others are more fortunate in being more prone to shed excess caloric intake.  It's also true that some people have physical disabilities which substantially inhibit their ability to effectively excercise to help maintain a healthy body and weight.  I get that.

            However, it is NOT insensitive to point out that while some people's bodies do make it harder to avoid putting on weight from excess calories, nonetheless excess weight DOES NOT accumulate on anyone's body except by eating more calories than necessary for basic metabolism.  For most people, overweight is as overweight does.  PERIOD.

            That observation doesn't necessarily require I disrespect you overall as a person if you're overweight.  Everyone has their foibles and flaws, the fit and slim along with the unfit and overweight, and so within generous limits, live and let live.  But let's don't make false excuses for most people who are significantly overweight: they eat too much.

            •  sorry but you are wrong (13+ / 0-)

              you gain weight by skeletal growth, you gain weight through fluid retention, you gain weight by drinking water (no calories) you gain weight by hydration by the environment, you gain weight by exercise and growth of muscle, you gain weight by slowing of metabolism/and or the shock of sudden withdrawal of nutrients; you gain weight through tissue and tumor growth, through removal of endocrine glands, malfunction of any or all of the major organ systems... do I really need to go on?

              "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

              by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:39:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is complete B.S. (0+ / 0-)

                NONE of the routes you suggest can possibly result in overall net weight gain without MORE incoming energy/mass from food intake than the body can burn off.  You need a net intake of organic carbon molecules and minerals to put on weight.

                For example, although exercise is an essential condition for increasing muscle mass, it is not a sufficient condition for increasing muscle mass without food intake > metabolic burning of calories.  Nor can tumors grow except by either consuming incoming calories or subtractively displacing existing tissue, but they cannot spontaneously gain mass without one or the other.   True, there are some people who have medical conditions which cause excess fluid retention, but water retention alone is NOT the underlying major cause for the substantial majority of obeseity conditions.

                It's one thing to harbor unjustified predjudices against other people because their lifestyle habits are imperfect, as are most people's in some way or other.  I have my own set of vices, it happens that obesity isn't one of those, but nonetheless I do have others.  However, it's something else to try to spin a proper ethos of healthy live and let live respect for others and their human flaws which don't harm anyone but themselves, and quite something else to try to spin that into an ideology absolving folks from all responsibility or objective criticism of those flaws.

                Quite aside from this tangent we're on, I don't quite understand why the airline couldn't have better accomodated the man in question to get him home in timely fashion.  So far as appears, despite his obese condition, he did everything reasonble on his part to facilitate his accomodation by the airnline without unreasonbly affecting anyone else.

                •  'obesity conditions' (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  renbear, Timaeus, vcmvo2, revsue, Naranjadia

                  you are now post-hoc qualifying your argument about 'weight' by using the term 'obesity'. you said "gain WEIGHT".  it's called moving the goalposts.  I know you are trying to be helpful and /or scientific, but it is coming across very differently, and I have to say I do not much appreciate it.  I have been tsked at by enough doctors, lay people, strangers (you go in the 'stranger' category) who think that my own problems were the result of huge secret eating campaigns.  I pled with doctors for 25 years to test my thyroid, which went untreated for all that time until I got a competent endocrinologist as well, and it neither impresses nor informs me that you would parachute into a diary about fat-hate and prejudice and simply announce "You can't gain weight except by excess calories."  Not in the least impressed.  I really don't want you cherry-picking my medical history to prove your case either.  So can you leave it alone, maybe... please?  you've got me and every other overweight person already prejudged and pre-categorized, you may just need to be content with that.

                  "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                  by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:14:07 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  We're not robots, not all bodies process incoming (6+ / 0-)

                  fluids or solids the same, due to various conditions.

                  What used to get digested and eventually sent out of your system - via urination, sweating, etc. - may no longer work as it used to or should due to medications, disease, injury, some other metabolic change, etc.

                  And yet, people still need to drink/eat at least what they think are adequate amounts in order to keep the body supplied with appropriate nutrients and water on a daily basis.  It's tough to know what that amount should be when your body is acting less than optimal.

                  Then, biased people will blame the overweight individual for simply eating too much, as if they were clueless about the role of intakes (which could also be IVs for treatment) related to weight gain, etc.  Conditions aren't always optimal for someone to be fully aware - and therefore, in complete control - of how much weight they are gaining at a given point in time by the accumulation of factors involved.

                  I think that is what the diarist is getting at in this thread.

                  "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                  by wader on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:05:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  WRONG (0+ / 0-)

              You have WAY oversimplified things

              Read Good calories/Bad calories by Taubes

            •  You are making a REALLY bad assumption (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              That metabolic rates are constant and not impacted by food consumption.  That's of course non sense and it's also one reason why calories in/calories out is an nonsensical over simplification

              Do you think what you eat impacts your activity level?  

            •  Ha! (7+ / 0-)

              I don't think so. I'm a naturally tiny person who was severely underweight and it was made worse at times because I'd relapse into a flare up of my undiagnosed Crohn's disease for decades!

              then when I was 38 it was diagnosed and they put me on Prednisone. It took care of the abdominal pain and other assorted side effects, but I gained 35 lbs! Just like that! Most of it was fluid weight but my metabolism changed remarkably.

              Once I got off prednisone and was stable it took me well over a year to get rid of all the weight and to re-establish my own metabolism.

              But it's been an on - off fight with my disease. Finally, they came up with more targeted drugs that didn't mess with anything aside from the inflammation. But every once and awhile I have flares where they have to add prednisone to control the symptoms and once again I gain weight , whether I am nauseated or not. Sometimes I just cannot eat at all and have been put on IV nourishment with calculated calories etc...

              It is sheer hell. I now can imagine what people go through, all too easily, when it's some undiagnosed metabolic disorder but everyone just says "Oh yeah, there goes another fatso that can't stop eating. "

              So easy to be judgmental when you haven't been there. Have some empathy.

              In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

              by vcmvo2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:33:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wonderful comment. God bless you with (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2, pale cold, Smoh

                your suffering.  I've had several law clients with Crohn's, and I understand as well as I can.

                I had one client with Crohn's, a foreign medical doctor, who would get attacks so bad he would fall to the floor and could not even crawl to the telephone, his pain was so bad.

                •  And thank you for your comments all (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus, louisev, pale cold, Smoh

                  throughout this diary. What louisev is trying to discuss is being hijacked relentlessly because people want to find a solution to a problem just like that, so they can quickly understand why this poor woman died.

                  But there are some people that always think it's about their issue. Most people would approve my thin body which I had done nothing to earn but have an illness that I couldn't control. It's the reverse here where an illness caused this woman to carry so much extra weight and yet people can't see that it's basically the same thing. Metabolism is something that no one really can predict. And side effects from helpful medications can be devastating.

                  I see you mentioned your hypertension. Prednisone also gave me that and I had to be put on an anti-hypertensive. Now that just exaggerated the whole cycle and made me feel like I was walking through mud.

                  I hope you are feeling better- I know you were ill lately.

                  In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                  by vcmvo2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:49:29 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've been suffering very greatly, (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vcmvo2, SwedishJewfish, Cobbler, pale cold

                    with constant extreme bloating and pain since November 3rd.  It has been so bad that I've had many suicidal thoughts; that's the main cause of death in my family in the last 30 years; the others are stroke and heart attack; never cancer. Genetics matters.

                    But this diary and the thread give me HOPE and I'm absolutely going to survive to age 80 or more.  I guarantee it.  (He said optimistically with a sudden infusion of Grace.)

                    God willing.  Of course, I'm worried about the MAJOR surgery I need to have very soon.

                    •  hm, maybe you have a very rare disease (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      vcmvo2, Timaeus, Cobbler, Smoh

                      I wrote up how I found mine (I found it, not the doctors) on  The first specialist I was referred to wrote very derisively in my chart notes "She thinks she has this very rare condition because she read it on the internet."  He didn't revise the chart after the lab tests I finally got approved, PROVED I had exactly what I said I had.  It probably wounded his ego. Because my condition is an autosomal recessive congenital one, many people in my family (1 in 4 by statistics) would have it if both parents carried the gene.  It is extremely difficult to get doctors to examine people for the potential of a rare condition, particularly if it is endocrinological (endocrinologists are in short supply in the US - there are less than 5,000 the last time I got a statistic).  By contrast, according to the Orphanet (Registry of Rare Diseases and Orphan Drugs) there are over 6,000 rare diseases (defined as affecting less than 1 in 2000 individuals), and 5 or 6 new diseases are discovered EACH WEEK.  Medicine is complicated!

                      OrphaNet Rare Disease Database

                      "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                      by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 05:49:30 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  This ^^^ (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        louisev, Timaeus, Cobbler, Smoh

                        It's so true! I can't even tell you how many doctors (GI doctors) told me that my pain was all in my head because I didn't test out as an exact fit.

                        Turns out I have a rare combination of a genetic marker that determines that if I get Crohn's disease I will also get RA with it.

                        Now it's an easy blood test but back when I was diagnosed by a rheumatologist who finally listened to me, he figured it out. When he said, " I know what you have!" I said in reply, "Oh you do not!" Just because I couldn't believe after decades of pain and all kinds of quackery, someone knew what I had!

                        I'm still with him. There is hope, if you know it's not in your head sometimes you have to persist over and over again.

                        I have something called HLA B 27+ and it explains so much about some of the wacky combination of things that I have.

                        Some doctors listen and some just flat out try to fit you into a box and if they can't quite fit you then they dismiss you. I have a healthy scepticism of doctors even though I'm a nurse.

                        In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                        by vcmvo2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:05:04 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  decades of pain (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Timaeus, vcmvo2, Smoh

                          I sure know what that feels like.  I wrote some diaries on DailyKos at the time I was doing my research and found my condition, and realized that all this time I too had bought into what doctors had told me; and because my condition affects and is affected by electrolytes, all of the medications they tried on me, if they contained sodium, would do one whacky thing, if they contained potassium, would do another whacky thing, because my sodium-potassium, adrenal-pituitary system is completely different from 'normals.'  Many, many blood pressure medications are potassium-based, and even though I have a tendency to potassium deficiency by nature, taking a potassium salt type medication like losartan potassium (brand name Cozaar) in the 'beforetimes' caused such severe muscle cramps (a side effect of excess potassium)  that I would be bent over double trying to exercise.  If you don't have a root cause of a condition, medical treatments can be dangerous at best, deadly at worst.  I have been more or less stable now for a year, and I am learning what affects my system, (except for times when I am sick with something), but I know how to right the ship when it goes off course.

                          "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                          by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:21:35 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And they do lurve their meds. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vcmvo2, Timaeus, Smoh

                            I was in the hospital 5 times recently. I am not getting into the entire thing right now, but let me say...

                            I was in a world recognized teaching hospital and every resident or specialist just added a new med to the list.
                            They wouldn't even discuss it with me. The poor nurses got that job. LOL.
                            It was INSANE. I just started demanding to talk to the person who ordered it.  
                            I was without internet, so I had to ask for the sheets to explain new meds.

                            I have perfect cholesterol, and no one bothered to check before ordering cholesterol meds.
                            I have Chrohn's disease. The nurse got downright snotty when I refused meds that were not good for that.
                            They had sleeping pills on the list, anti anxiety drugs. ETC ETC
                            No one talked to me about ANY of this.

                            And better yet, they have no for sure diagnosis yet. They just make a cocktail and wait for the side effects.

                            In the end, I had trouble getting tylenol for pain. They were too busy and I had a panic attack. Then they threatened me with IV's full of MORE meds to lower my heart rate cause they caused a panic attack.

                            Yes. Bad experience. LOL.

                            Don't get me started on the "death watch". Or the food.

                            "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?" - Holly, Red Dwarf

                            by pale cold on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:14:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I was in the hospital last year as (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Timaeus, Smoh

                            well for my Crohn's disease. My GI doctor was away for Memorial Day (how dare he?) So the admitting doctor freaked at some of my blood studies and put me on not 1 but 2 IV antibiotics, I knew it wasn't an infection but no one would listen.

                            Then they cancelled my Humira (which I absolutely need for My Crohn's and my Rheumatoid arthritis). I was desperate when my GI doctor came into the room the next AM I was ridiculously relieved. He does not panic, he's used to me. He cancelled the Antibiotics and told me - of course you're getting your humira.

                            Absolutely I was having a panic attack.

                            In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                            by vcmvo2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:07:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Its amazing, the patient is a side of beef (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vcmvo2, Timaeus, Smoh

                            syndrome.  They know everything but have not even looked at the file.

                            Hey,  they stuck some pain killer I had never heard of before in my IV. Just  walked over and started injecting it, I said hold on and the nurse ignored me!.... and I just pinched off the tubing.
                            "Take it out, and give me tylenol." I said.  LOL.

                             Oh boy did I make some friends.

                            I am very lucky as my chrohn's is very mild at the moment. I really want to keep it that way.  
                            I really really hate that place.  
                            Part of my panic attacks are from being out of control of what is happening to me. Information and the ability to decide for myself are important.

                            "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?" - Holly, Red Dwarf

                            by pale cold on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:49:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well there is help (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Timaeus, pale cold, Smoh

                            for Crohn's like Remicade and Humira. I first used Remicade and then since it's chimerical, half mouse and half human, I developed antibodies to the mouse part after 8 years. So I started taking humira - 100% human anti tumor necrosis factor, it really helps.

                            Crohn's disease is too much circulating tumor necrosis factor so our own immune system attacks the lining of the GI system. Nice huh?

                            Good luck from one side of beef to another!

                            In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                            by vcmvo2 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 10:25:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good grief! What a nightmare! (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            pale cold, Smoh, vcmvo2

                            For good reason I'm also scared to death to go to the hospital.  And I need to have a surgery soon that is supposed to require at least ONE MONTH in the hospital.  My anxiety knows no bounds, even though I try to be a man of faith.

                          •  Do you have someone (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Smoh, Timaeus, vcmvo2

                            who can be your advocate and stick up for you?

                            I know, many nurses are overworked and underpaid. Some are awesome.

                            Some......Just aren't.

                            Doctors. OY.

                            I took a small ancient DVD player with me and borrowed a lot of movies.

                            I wish I had been in my own community, I was so far away too. That makes it so much harder.

                            But, ya. If you can have internet. That would be a great support system. A place to vent.

                            good luck. Stick up for your rights.
                            They really dislike that for some reason? :)

                            "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?" - Holly, Red Dwarf

                            by pale cold on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 03:38:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Get someone who will advocate for you (0+ / 0-)

                            And bring an iPad, it will keep you sane!

                            In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                            by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 01:47:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Goodness. I don't know what it is. I'm (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        louisev, vcmvo2

                        doing my best to fight it, and it's grinding me down.

                        My internist did a stool test for parasites and some blood tests for bacteria, which all came back negative, and then punted, at least so far.  I trust her; I think she's just as puzzled as I am.

                        My nonstop misery is coming close to destroying the business I've built up over 20 years, although I'm trying my best.  I really am!

                        •  this sounds way too simple i know (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Timaeus, vcmvo2, Smoh

                          I went to and put in lists of my symptoms.  When I put in the ones that were the most specific and combined them, the results narrowed down to 2.  I had the second one.  That was how easy it was - just using a logic tree on a website.  And testing proved it.

                          "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                          by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:48:56 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll try that. Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vcmvo2, Smoh
                          •  it won't cost anything! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Timaeus, Smoh

                            I don't mean to simply set you on the rare disease hobbyhorse, but ever since 2009 when I decided I had to take charge of my own medical problems, I have encountered people who have told me stories of severe medical problems, many of them unresolved, and their odyssey through the medical system... these are not people who are uninsured or underserved, they are people who have nearly bankrupted themselves spending thousands of dollars going to clinics, research hospitals, special studies for what was thought to be 'their' symptoms. One man in particular, had had 3 karyotypes done, and it stumped everyone how he could have a different outcome on a karyotype, because the karyotype is at the gene level, and either it had to be a huge mistake by the lab... or something else.  And it turns out it was something else.  And after ten years (I had known him for 3 years by the time he got diagnosed) he finally was referred to a specialist - in allergies, who drew enough vials of blood and ordered enough tests to diagnose him: and for the first time it not only explained all his symptoms, but it also explained how his karyotype changed.  The only thing I can suggest from my own case is : don't doubt yourself, keep looking, keep asking questions.

                            "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                            by louisev on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 04:45:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Great comment. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        Sigh. So I wonder how I could pursue this with my HMO, Kaiser Permanente.  I have tremendous respect for them, and many reasons to think they're honest and reliable.  But I'm not sure they know how to go this far with rare diseases.

                        In any event, I sure wish they could figure out what the hell is causing me so much misery the last 3 months.  All kinds of stool tests, and blood tests, and x-rays, and CAT scans have all come up negative.

                        So I'm no longer getting quite the same attention.  But the suffering has not gone away!

            •  You can easily gain weight (0+ / 0-)

              by going to a heavenly body that has a higher gravity than Earth.  If you went to Jupiter or Saturn, you'd gain a heck of a lot of weight without even eating a peanut.

              I'm likely making this up as I go along.

              by Anjana on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 07:39:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Twenty pounds overweight is not obese (30+ / 0-)

          I find your snap judgements about the obese to be offensive.

          My wife is a plus-sized woman who has diabetes. She also has three herniated discs in her back, which limits her ability to exercise. The only thing that helps her is swimming, but we neither have room nor the means to build a pool that would allow her to swim year round. For what it's worth, we live in New England and the pool would have to be indoors.

          My wife has her diabetes under control. Why? Because we belong to a CSA and have access to good fresh local produce. Has she lost weight? Yes, but even 30-40 pounds on a 300 pound woman look negligible.

          And when we do fly, I pay extra so she can fly first class. Yes the seats are wider. She can fit in a coach seat, but they are very cramped and it exacerbates her herniated discs.

          One more thing, you can't catch "the fat" from people. It's not communicable, but your attitude toward obese people is contemptible.

        •  You're wrong. (16+ / 0-)

          It would only take one back injury, for instance, to make a person sedentary so that they cannot burn as many calories as if they are mobile, even if they cut back on their food intake.

          I hope you never have to learn this the hard way.

        •  I am obese (23+ / 0-)

          I eat a STRICT 1500 calories a day. I measure or weigh EVERYTHING that goes in my mouth. I walk for 2 HOURS a day either outside on trails or on my treadmill at about 2 mph which is my natural walking gait. I am 54 and post menopausal. I eat mostly whole foods and I cook from scratch. I eat very little processed food and NO fast foods of any kind. I eat out about once a month but it is always in a nice restaurant and I forgive myself for that day and just enjoy it.

          BEFORE I hit menopause I was losing weight at 1500 calories maybe 1/2-3/4 lb/wk without quite so much walking. But it was extremely slow and hard going ... and it can get depressing to work so hard and see others eat piles of food around you with no consequences ... but it is what it is ...

          After 4 years on a strict calorie restricted diet I am STILL obese ... although I am 100 lbs lighter than my highest, all of that loss happened before I hit menopause ...however at least I'm not gaining ...

          So here I am a 54 year old woman post menopausal eating a diet that should net me a 1 lb weight loss per week PLUS I am burning about 500 EXTRA calories by walking 2 hrs a day and at best I am maintaining and I have been doing this for FOUR YEARS ... there isn't a doubt in my mind that hormones play a huge part in our body weight and I wouldn't be quite so quick to point fingers at all overweight people if I were you ... just be thankful your hormones aren't like mine ... it's more complicated than JUST what you eat although I do agree that what you eat can play a part it is not the ONLY part ...

          "Not all who wander are lost"

          by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:32:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know what you mean (8+ / 0-)

            As a 20 year old I maintained weight on a 1200 calorie per day diet despite walking about 8 miles a day.  (Jointproblems kept me from jogging).  This was a medically supervised diet and the doctors kept looking under the bed to find my extra food stash--but there wasnt any.  Weight loss required an 800 calorie per day diet, but on that I got very ill.

            Now that I'm older its worse.

            Democrats give you the Bill of Rights; Republicans sell you a bill of goods!

            by barbwires on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:02:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  More evidence (0+ / 0-)

            That restricted calorie diets are usually ineffectual.

            As I've said throughout the thread, try eliminating/reducing sugar, starches and refined carbs.  I can almost guarantee 5-10 lbs of weight loss in the first month

            •  Reducing carbs tends to reduce hunger (0+ / 0-)

              and decrease caloric intake.  1500 calories a day is what I'd eat to maintain.  While losing, I run between 700-1000 calories a day.  I get really cranky if I drop to 500 a day or below.

              •  I am afraid I disagree (0+ / 0-)

                Reducing carbs does not reduce hunger by itself nor does it reduce caloric intake unless you don't eat anything to replace the calories you lose by not eating the carbs ...

                Calories are reduced simply by one means only ... eating fewer calories ... where those calories come from is irrelevant from that standpoint ... nutritionally it's a different story however ...

                "Not all who wander are lost"

                by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 12:21:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I disagree too. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas, vcmvo2

                  Carbs are the easiest type of food to transform into blood sugar, so they spike your blood sugar, which yanks your endocrine system around, so you get feedback that satisfies you quickly, then drops off again quickly, leaving you hungry again.  By switching to proteins and fats, which take far longer to digest, your blood sugar stays much more even, and doesn't create that 'crash'.

                  Now yeah, there are some few folks for whom that isn't the case, but for most people, it's pretty straightforward, and you can even map it out with a glucose meter and a lot of finger poking.

                  •  I will concede that point (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

                    Regarding the blood sugar and the spike and fall which can induce food cravings ... but I would like to qualify that a tiny bit ... I don't think of carbs as the enemy when eaten in moderation, which I do ...  

                    I would not say it like "reducing carbs tends to reduce hunger" so much as I would say that "eating carbs in moderation can help prevent the food cravings"

                    "Not all who wander are lost"

                    by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 12:51:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sorry, I'd gone back into rl. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      Ok, I wasn't as clear as I could have been.  But from my own anecdotal experience, 90% of 'dieting' is just finding something that's easy for you to stay with longterm, ie as a lifestyle change.  If your diet or exercise regime is painful or tedious, most people will end up giving up on it.  For me, at least, low carbing (on most days) is easy and simple.  I'll still eat whatever on those occasions when I'm out socially or during the holiday baking season, then go back after.

                •  Please stop (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You don't know what you are talking about and are totally misleading people.

                  Carbs have in fact been shown to produce poor satiation in many people (compared to fat/protein which tend to make people feel full).

                  I know for a fact that you are wrong in my personal case because once I went low carb I started feeling full after MUCH less food intake

                  •  No (0+ / 0-)

                    Your personal experience while nice is totally irrelevant.

                    Carbs are NOT the enemy. Too many carbs may be ... but eating a balanced diet is NOT the wrong way to go ...

                    I am not misleading people. Eat a balanced diet ... eat whole grains instead of processed white flour. Keep your added sugar to a minimum. Fat is not your enemy you need it but try and use healthy sources of fat instead of chemical concoctions (ie margarine) and consume fat in moderation Eggs are good for you NOT bad for you ... full of nutrients and protein but again moderation. Eat your vegetables yada yada yada ... all solid advice ...

                    "Not all who wander are lost"

                    by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:21:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry to dissappoint but I already DO that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              When I do, I eat pretty much only whole grains, brown rice etc ... I make my own bread. My added sugar is usually less than 40g a day often quite less ... I rarely eat white flour, white sugar or white rice ... I appreciate the advice but please don't assume I do not know or understand about dieting and restricted calorie diets. Reduced calorie diets often ARE effectual and they were for me as well BEFORE menopause. I lost over 100 lbs in the course of a year before it all came to a screeching halt ... and even then I do not blame the diet so much as I do my changing metabolism ...

              I eat a balanced diet with lots of vegetables, whole grains, low sugar and I cook from scratch with real ingredients not boxed and rarely canned. I watch the balance of my nutrients and I rarely go over my daily quota except on protein ...

              "Not all who wander are lost"

              by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 12:09:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Um (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                40g of Sugar is actually quite a bit.  I sometimes eat less than 40g of sugar in a week.

                Restricted calorie diets have never been shown to be effective for long term weight loss in scientific studies.  

                •  That is TOTAL sugar (0+ / 0-)

                  I do not eat 40g of added sugar in fact I don't use sugar at all .. not in my coffee not in my cereal .. not in my recipes ... nada ... all the sugar I get comes from my food ... the sugar bowl is at the back of my cupboard ... however there is Barley malt in my bread .. 1 Tbsp for a whole loaf which generally goes stale before I ever manage to eat the whole thing, I simply do not eat much bread ... there is sugar in milk ... there is sugar in some vegetables and there is certainly sugar in fruit ...

                  "Not all who wander are lost"

                  by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:25:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I should clarify (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I erroneously stated in my post to which you are replying that my added sugar was less than 40g per day and in fact often very much less ... what I MEANT to say was that my TOTAL sugar was less than 40g ...

                  I can see why that might cause some confusion

                  It is important to note a few other things about natural sugar ... a cup of 2% milk can have as much as 12g of sugar in the form of  lactose ... an apple can have as much as 25g of natural sugar

                  Generally in terms of diet, while there is no RECOMMENDED daily value for sugar is is generally accepted that keeping ADDED sugar somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-45 grams depending on sex for diabetics it is recommended to be somewhat less how much less varies but in general 30% less is a fair target. This value does NOT include natural sugar ... only ADDED sugar.

                  Since I don't generally ADD sugar to anything my added sugar most days would extremely low ... however my total sugar which includes sugars found in things like fruits and vegetables and things like milk would be kept below that arbitrary added sugar number as well ... which I think, all things considered is quite good

                  "Not all who wander are lost"

                  by mysticl on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 02:55:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you know what is kind of scary about all this (4+ / 0-)

                    usually it is those of us who have been battling for our lives and health who know the most about the science, chemistry, biology, and of course, the effects on our own bodies.  And it doesn't make a lick of difference to the 'thins' who are instant experts simply because they're thin!  it's a credential!  And I can say with certain knowledge, that there are probably only two people in my local area  (and they have 10-15 years of experience as senior researchers at NIH) who know more about my condition than I do.  My specialist has one patient with my condition, I am his patient 0.  He has not seen another one in 4 years.  NIH has two others.  And the society for this constellation of conditions still does not have any basic information on this one, posted on its rare condition website - and it was first described in medical literature 60 years ago. 60.  But sign up at Daily Kos and someone with a book on carbohydrates can diagnose me in two seconds!  it's a miracle I tell you.

                    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                    by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:27:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well said. I'm in the same boat with you, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      friend (I hope I can say), even if my unknown problem is not as rare (at the moment it's a mystery, and all of my ad hoc theories are wrong).

                      I'm extremely grateful for this diary thread.

          •  Oh my god. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mysticl, louisev, Caipirinha

            Don't get me started on this.  MAN o pause is a beast.  A freaking beast.  I HATE this shit!  My weight has been stuck on stupid.

            Yet another reason -- out of freaking control hormones.

            A BIG problem.

          •  I remember moving to another state (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, Smoh

            after I lost weight following my diagnosis, and the endocrinogist I tried transferring to told me the first order of business was to lose weight.

            I pointed to my chart and said "I did lose weight.  I'm 65 pounds thinner than I was four months ago, I eat a very strict diet.  I came to you for treatment of my adrenal condition."  He paused for about 5 seconds before going on with his recommended regime about how my real problem is my weight, even though I had a diagnosis of a condition I needed ongoing treatment for that was the solution to the problem.  From that point on when I end up in this stupid discussion with a doctor and they say "you should lose some weight" I try to smile and say "I have, thank you." Good luck with your rigorous discipline, and I hope they get better answers for post-menopausal metabolic issues than currently exist.

            "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

            by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 03:53:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  You got yourself an uniformed prejudice there. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, BlackSheep1, renbear, Timaeus

          You might want to stop displaying your bigotry, quite so brightly.

          Then again... Do Proceed

          I voted for the human beings.

          by denig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:47:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Come on- enough is enough (9+ / 0-)

          I am sure the diarist knows her condition better than anyone else. There is simply no call for you to continue on like this, when the whole point of the diary is that we progressives should not be prejudging and judging overweight people.

          •  thank you (10+ / 0-)

            this is part of the reason why I never wrote one of these before, because I knew the low-carb people would come with their miracle results, and the low sugar peolpe would come out with their miracle results, and the doctors would weigh in with their "calories in and calories out" and the exercise people (who are often the most insulting because they have found the exercise religion they think I never tried - they think NONE OF US ever tried - is going to work, I'm surprised the South Beach diet hasn't made an appearance ! I didn't name my condition because I know from experience the more information you give people the more they're going to pretend to diagnose you - and I already have a treating physician, thanks much, and he's already given me my advice, thanks much, and I don't need that.  It isn't about the entire world fixing me, or you, or the other five people who dared comment here.  IT'S ABOUT PREJUDICE.  And part of the trying to proactively fix us is part of the prejudice, because you can't accept us, whatever, wherever, and however we are.

            "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

            by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 01:19:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I have a suggestion (6+ / 0-)

          Go to and get an idea what's going on in research into obesity. These are from the last six months.

          Fetal Exposure to PVC Plastic Chemical Linked to Obesity in Offspring

          Limiting Polyunsaturated Fatty Acid Levels in Pregnancy May Influence Body Fat of Children

          Researchers Identify a New Gene With a Key Role in Obesity and Diabetes

          Overweight Begins in the Womb: Lifestyle of Mother Shapes Disposition for Subsequent Weight

          Genes and Obesity: Fast Food Isn't Only Culprit in Expanding Waistlines -- DNA Is Also to Blame

          Important Factor in Fat Storage and Energy Metabolism

          Manipulating Hormone Receptors May Help in the Fight Against Obesity

          Scientists Find Molecular Link to Obesity/insulin Resistance in Mice

          Gut Organisms Could Be Clue in Controlling Obesity Risk

          Brain Neurons and Diet Influence Onset of Obesity and Diabetes in Mice

          Natural Killer T-Cells in Fat Tissue Guard Against Obesity, Study Finds

          Gut Microbes Help the Body Extract More Calories from Food

          Targeting Taste Receptors in the Gut May Help Fight Obesity

          Novel Role for Protein Linked to Obesity and Development of Type 2 Diabetes Identified

          Brown Adipose Tissue Has Beneficial Effects on Metabolism and Glucose Tolerance

          Obesity Reversed in Mice by Manipulating Production of an Enzyme

          New Clues to How the Brain and Body Communicate to Regulate Weight

          New Genes for Adult BMI Levels: Versatile Gene Discovery Chip Used to Detect Gene Variants Involved in Biology of Obesity

          Changes in Sleep Architecture Increase Hunger, Eating

          Immune Cells Could Protect Against Obesity, Scientists Discover

          Scientists Find Molecular Link to Obesity/insulin Resistance in Mice

          Immune System Molecule Affects Our Weight

          Pint-Size Molecules Show Promise Against Obesity

          Prenatal Maternal Smoking Associated With Increased Risk of Adolescent Obesity

          What Babies Eat After Birth Likely Determines Lifetime
          Risk of Metabolic Mischief and Obesity, Rat Studies Suggest

          Living Against the Clock; Does Loss of Daily Rhythms Cause Obesity?

          How 'Beige' Fat Makes the Pounds Melt Away

          Early Exposure to Antibiotics May Impact Development, Obesity

          Link Between Hormone Levels and Risk for Metabolic Disease Uncovered

          Bacteria-Immune System 'Fight' Can Lead to Chronic Diseases, Study Suggests

          Stress During Pregnancy Leads to Abdominal Obesity in Mice Offspring

          In-Utero Exposure to Magnetic Fields Associated With Increased Risk of Obesity in Childhood

          Study Identifies Receptor's Role in Regulating Obesity, Type 2 Diabetes

          In Utero Exposure to Diesel Exhaust a Possible Risk Factor for Obesity

          Overweight? There's a Vaccine for That, at Least for Mice

          Groundbreaking Discovery of Mechanism That Controls Obesity, Atherosclerosis

          We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

          by denise b on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:00:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  holy COW (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish, Timaeus, Smoh

            that is a whole lot of research going on!  I knew about the brown-fat beige-fat research but, boy am I behind the curve on research!

            "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

            by louisev on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 04:43:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Excellent post!!! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            denise b, Smoh

            I have subscribed to Science Daily for at least 20 years, read them all, and what I've read there informs all my posts here, but didn't go back and give cites like that.  (And, alas, my memory is not what it once was.)

            That's great!  Thank you.

            And it pretty much proves what I've been saying in this interesting thread.

    •  ???? (0+ / 0-)

      That would be like my saying let's leave the Blacks out of it regarding LGBT sensitivity issues.

      It's about sensitivity.

      •  With that, I amend my remarks (0+ / 0-)

        to denote that I do agree with them now, as I read the revised diary and not the original one louisev wrote.  I would agree that the original statements were bit of a stretch.

        Carry on common and hope your partner is getting better!

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