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View Diary: WITNESS: The Brutal Asymmetry of the Israeli Occupation as Soldiers Pepper Spray Seated Villagers (180 comments)

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  •  So in other words you can't square (0+ / 0-)

    your support for the Palestinian Polity with your ideals regarding racism? That was the question I asked.

    As for Israel, It is not a racist state. There are some racists in power there but not everyone in the government is racist NOR is the state structure itself racist.

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 10:14:12 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I support people not being oppressed (0+ / 0-)

      And not being ethnically cleansed, regardless of who they elect.  Hamas is antisemitic, yes, as are a huge number of people who Israel ethnically cleansed.  And this sort of false equivalence is absurd. Hamas won an election because they are clearly resisting the actions of Israel in a way that seems effective, not because they are racist.  The same is not true of Likud and the far right parties.  They get elected because of anti-arab racism in Israel.

      •  NO it is not false equivalence at all (0+ / 0-)

        It is a factual. The Palestinian Polity voted racists in either in the P.A. OR Hamas. These are the people that would run Palestine and are the pseudo governments in the meanwhile.

        Palestinians voted for Hamas for a number of reasons and a lot more of it was because of P.A. corruption and Hamas social services, as well as a conservative religious philosophy.

        But be that as it may, both the P.A. and Hamas are racist to the core. You seem to have no problem with that. Why is that?

        As for Israel this...

        The same is not true of Likud and the far right parties.  They get elected because of anti-arab racism in Israel.

        is nonsense.

        People voted for Likud-Beitanu, HaBayit HaYehudi and the Ultra Religious parties for a variety of reasons but racism was NOT the reason for that. They voted for these folks because of security issues, or because they supported the Settlements, or for religious reasons. Racism, while it does exist in those parties is NOT a reason for their existence and the fact that you think it is, is telling regarding your knowledge of Israel and this conflict.

        Now there is a racist party in Israel - "Otzma L'Yisrael" (Strong Israel). They are a party people who make race an issue. Otzma L'Yisrael (run by ex-Kahanists) did not cross the electoral threshold and have no part in the Israeli Government.

        You should really get this shit straight before making comments like that.

        OH and there is no excuse for racism in any form, because when you say things like:

        Hamas is antisemitic, yes, as are a huge number of people who Israel ethnically cleansed.
        First of all, I don't accept that Israel did any wholesale ethnic cleansing.

        Second, That is just an excuse... If that were the case then Jews should have every reason to be racist to both Arabs and everyone else for the way they were treated for the last 2500 years.

        HOWEVER, as I tell those idiots at another blog who believe just that (as you are seeming to justify), that racism and hatred is an incredibly stupid thing and that there is no justification for it in any way shape or form.

        Third, People in that region were anti-Semitic long before Israel even existed or any alleged ethnic cleansing took place.

        SO you might not like people being oppressed (and I don't either) but you may want to take a look at the side you are supporting and making excuses for, because given .01% chance they would making the Occupation look like a picnic in the park. And who do you REALLY think is going to run the Palestinian Polity going forward, some young bloggers and Pro-Democracy activists?

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 02:58:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Racism (0+ / 0-)
          They voted for these folks because of security issues, or because they supported the Settlements, or for religious reasons.
          Yeah, I don't think you understand what racism actually is.
          SO you might not like people being oppressed (and I don't either) but you may want to take a look at the side you are supporting and making excuses for, because given .01% chance they would making the Occupation look like a picnic in the park. And who do you REALLY think is going to run the Palestinian Polity going forward, some young bloggers and Pro-Democracy activists?
          Build up the boogeyman and then complain about how horrible they are.  Yay for perpetual war!

          Israel has been slaughtering civilians for too long, and folks like you have been apologizing for too long.  This is slow motion colonization and both you and I know it's going to end with a Greater Israel stretching from the Jordan to the sea.  You can protest all you want, but when you look at the maps you see that Israel has never stopped expanding, and nothing is going to stop them.  I doubt they'll wipe out the Palestinians, but they'll certainly kick them out of the west bank, and probably out of Israel proper once the hard right finally takes over, once the left refuses to have anything to do with ethnic cleansing and abandons the state.

          I don't claim to have an answer, but you shoot down anything that might do anything.  Probably against BDS as well, because it isn't no-violent enough.

          But rail against how horrible the natives are all you want.  Colonization is colonization.

          •  Heh... I know exactly what "Racism" is... (0+ / 0-)

            having been victimized by "anti-Semitism" a number of times, I think I have an idea of what the word means in real terms.

            It is you my friend who doesn't seem to understand what Racism is.

            Israel has been slaughtering civilians for too long, and folks like you have been apologizing for too long.
            Who is apologizing for anything? Israel does a far better job NOT causing civilian casualties than any of it's neighbors do. Oh and before you pull out your little chart of civilian casualties in Israelis vs. Palestinians... you might remember the fact that the only reason that the numbers are what they are is not due in part to a lack of Palestinian's trying. They just simply can't execute their strategy. Your myopia on this is pretty amazing though.
            This is slow motion colonization and both you and I know it's going to end with a Greater Israel stretching from the Jordan to the sea.
            I am not willing to concede that point quite yet - but it disturbs me as well. But at the same time you decry that, you have to admit that you know that the Palestinians if given their chance will do the same thing except a lot faster and with a lot more brutality. OH and if you doubt me, then please show me the Palestinian leader that has gone public with a negotiation point giving up Palestinian Right of Return.

            Yes, Yes, I know Abbas discussed that but he never took that back to the people who overwhelmingly would have shot that idea down first and then shot Abbas for agreeing to it.

            This:

            I doubt they'll wipe out the Palestinians, but they'll certainly kick them out of the west bank, and probably out of Israel proper once the hard right finally takes over, once the left refuses to have anything to do with ethnic cleansing and abandons the state.
            The only party that advocated tossing the Palestinians out of the West Bank was Otzma L'Yisrael and you might notice that they didn't even cross the 2% of the vote electoral threshold. Kind of hard to take over when you can't even get one seat in the Knesset.

            And stories about the Left leaving might be big on some websites but so far it is not particularly happening outside of a few isolated cases. Most of the "Yerida" (leaving) is over economic matters...

            You say you don't have an answer but you certainly willing to advocate on behalf of Israel's enemies. Why should I respect that. If you don't have an answer then don't advocate one way or the other.

            Probably against BDS as well, because it isn't no-violent enough.
            Hell yeah, I am against BDS. It is an anti-Semitic ploy to destroy the Jewish State. Why the fuck would I support that??? What do I think should happen? If there is to be Peace.. I think the Palestinians need to say "Ok we accept Israel's existence as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People, and we will sign a full on peace treaty  along the lines of the Olmert Plan from 2007". I think the Israelis need stop their continued construction and enlist the U.S. and E.U. in a diplomatic effort to accept that should the Palestinians say that.

            If they Palestinians can't do that, then they will be shit out of luck because the Israelis are under no compunction to commit national suicide. Nor should they. If the Palestinians refuse... Israel simply needs to do what it must to protect it's people (both Arab and Jewish).

            Oh don't take that to mean I support the Occupation, I don't. I believe the Palestinians should have a homeland in part of the area between the Jordan and the Med.  I think Israel can make territorial adjustments that would maintain it's security and still give the Palestinians a reasonable homeland.

            As for "railing at the Natives". Not at all... Jews are native to the Israel region. But I am not "railing at the Natives", I am railing at racism, and honestly I don't give a fuck where it comes from. It's wrong. You either support it or you don't. Period.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 04:11:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

              I don't know why we bother with these conversation.

              Oh don't take that to mean I support the Occupation, I don't. I believe the Palestinians should have a homeland in part of the area between the Jordan and the Med.  I think Israel can make territorial adjustments that would maintain it's security and still give the Palestinians a reasonable homeland.
              You say that but you always put it on the Palestinians.  As if them saying one thing would make everything change.  Israel doesn't accept them as a state, so why should they accept Israel?  The difference of course being that Israel actually has a state while the Palestinians don't.  They were ethnically cleansed and abused ever since.  But really, it's just a couple of words that's the problem.  It isn't the fact that there's a colonial nation slowly annexing land.

              Really, I doubt the government on Israel feels the same as you do, given their actions.  I fully expect a one state solution regardless of whether Palestinians "recognize" Israel.

              •  Yeah I do put it on the Palestinians (more their (0+ / 0-)

                leadership) for the most part - you know why? Because they are the ones that have never accepted the existence of Israel as the National State and Homeland of the Jewish people. Sure the P.A. says they accept the Two State Solution but they won't renounce Palestinian Right of Return which would in effect cause the end of Israel as it was created to be. They give up nothing by accepting Two States and also demanding Palestinian R.O.R. as you would have a Palestinian State called "Palestine" and then you would have a majority Palestinian State called "Israel", and how long would Israel exist in that situation. I would give it 5-10 minutes. So really... lets be honest about what we are talking about shall we?

                Israel doesn't accept them as a state, so why should they accept Israel?
                Israel has made them a ton of offers that the Palestinians have walked on. AND Israel ACCEPTED a Palestinian State next to it in the Mandate - the Palestinians refused it. That is historical fact.

                And to answer your question - they don't have to accept Israel as a State - that is up to them, but then it's tough shit if they have an issue with Israel. The Israelis are under no obligation to people that want them to not exist. Life is like that. You can't always get what you want.

                The difference of course being that Israel actually has a state while the Palestinians don't.
                Whose fault is that? It sure isn't the Israelis.
                They were ethnically cleansed and abused ever since.  But really, it's just a couple of words that's the problem.  It isn't the fact that there's a colonial nation slowly annexing land.
                And more Jews were really ethnically cleansed from Arab nations than Palestinians from Israel. The difference; Israel took in the Jews that were ethnically cleansed, the Palestinians were hung out to dry by their "brothers" in the Arab World.

                AND.. if it's just a "matter of a couple of words" then why don't the Palestinians simply say them? Why won't they put that in writing? Why don't you simply come out and say them? I will tell you why - because those words have real meaning and that meaning translates into action and reality and that is action and reality which you don't like.

                Really, I doubt the government on Israel feels the same as you do, given their actions.  I fully expect a one state solution regardless of whether Palestinians "recognize" Israel.
                I don't really know about that. I know the majority of Israeli people support a Two State Solution. I will grant you that elements of the GOI seems to be moving to a One State solution no matter what the Palestinians do, but that NO ONE in the Palestinian polity accepts a true State solution either... SO... Oh well.

                OH and btw, the P.A. (and PLO in general) has "recognized" Israel, but under the conditions above. If they formally renounce Palestinian R.O.R. and still recognize Israel, then we have something to talk about. If not, then there really is nothing there.

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 05:03:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  They reject ethnic cleansing (0+ / 0-)

                  so it's their fault.  Even though they accept the two state solution, which is what you asked for.  This is why there will not be a two state solution, because it isn't good enough for Palestine to accept a two state solution, they must fully capitulate before negotiations begin.  Until they stay ethnically cleansed there is no deal.  Beautiful thing to build a Jewish homeland on.

                  Of course, their use of violence is the only thing that's ever given them any leverage at all, and that's just a further excuse for ethnic cleansing.  Israel probably won't make it all the way from the Jordan to the sea in my lifetime, but it'll happen.  They have nuclear weapons, there's nothing stopping them.  Why would they stop when they're clearly winning?  And that's not an indictment of Israel per se, that's how this shit works.  If the US hadn't taken such a hit in Afghanistan and even more so Iraq you can bet that we'd have rolled into Iran by now.

                  Maybe I'm just cynical in my "old" age, but none of these governments have an interest in peace, and they can always whip up a threat to rile people up into war.

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