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View Diary: Richard III’s Body Found? (310 comments)

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  •  He had a claim, but it was rather remote (7+ / 0-)

    He was of the House of Lancaster, but wasn't descended from the last Lancaster king (Henry VI). And there were a number of members of the House of York with better claims. It was why Henry VII had to deal with several rebellions during his rule, including by pretenders and imposters like Pekin Warbeck (who passed himself off as the younger of Edward IV's two sons).

    Richard was loyal to Edward IV (far better than their other brother, who was later executed for treason), but just because you're a good brother doesn't mean you'll be a good uncle. He wanted the crown, he saw his chance and took it. Doesn't make him a monster, just no worse than a lot of the kings of that era. (Hell, the first Lancaster king, Henry IV, got the crown by murdering his cousin Richard II.)

    Pity for him, though, that he only got two years to enjoy his il-gotten crown before Henry VII took him out. All that scheming for so little reward.

    •  Well the whole war of the roses (14+ / 0-)

      is replete with murder and treachery. Richard the I's own brother John usurped his kingship while his brother was off fighting Saracens in the Crusades.

      When I went to London, my son asked our guide about King Richard the I and the guide said, "Oh him? He was a rubbish king, always off fighting a war in France or elsewhere." Lots of myths abound about who did what at that time.

      Henry Tudor had a vague claim through his grandfather Owyn Ap Tydor to the English throne. But then so did a lot of people.

      The last Plantagenet King deserved a better ending than on Bosworth Field. Henry the VII was not a nice man at all. He developed the Star Chamber after all. I think he resembles Nixon much more than Richard whose reign was brief and poorly documented.

      But myths are strong and this one is historically inaccurate at best.

      In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

      by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 03:03:19 PM PST

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      •  Yeah, Richard I of myth did not reflect reality (10+ / 0-)

        Richard I was a great warrior, true, but as a king he sucked, becuase he was never there. He was always off on the Crusades or fighting some war on the Continent and he only viewed England as this bottomless money pit to fund his overseas exploits.

        Great warrior, bad king. It happens some times.

        And no, Henry VII wasn't a very nice guy. A very effective and often ruthless ruler (he left the kingdom in very good shape for his son), but the comparison to Nixon is rather apt, as he was suspicious and paranoid by nature (kind of understandable given how he got the throne and due to the various rebellions that sprang up during his regime). He was never very popular with his people, that's for sure.

      •  henry's claim (4+ / 0-)

        came through his mother, who was the eldest survivor of the house of somerset, and thus was the eldest surviving descendent of john of gaunt. tydor had no direct claim, himself.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 03:23:18 PM PST

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        •  No true (0+ / 0-)

          But a lot of his mythology was woven around his warrior hero Welsh king ancestor Owyn Ap Tydor.

          The Tudors busily embroidered their history as a way to legitimize Henry the VII in the eyes of the people. He did indeed spend a lot of time putting down rebellions as many people had much better claims to the throne of England.

          He ruthlessly jailed and executed everyone that had any Plantagenet blood.

          In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

          by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 06:38:57 PM PST

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          •  Got names? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zinger99

            Who are the 'many people' with better claims who rebelled? And: 'jailed and executed everyone that had Plantagenet blood'? Might you be exaggerating?

            You might want to read some of the discussions above ...

            Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

            by Clem Yeobright on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 06:50:13 PM PST

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            •  No I might not be exaggerating (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              radarlady

              I know the history, but you'll have to forgive me re the links. I'm watching the SB and am having a mini meltdown over the score.

              BBL

              In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

              by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 06:59:55 PM PST

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              •  Hint: Yes you are. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                radarlady

                Two words: Margaret Pole.

                Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

                by Clem Yeobright on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:12:17 PM PST

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                •  geeze I just lost my whole comment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Laurence Lewis, radarlady

                  OK let me give it another try.

                  I was referring to heirs that included the 5 adult sons of Edward III and Philippa of Hainault, who originally set up the dukedoms of Lancaster, York, Clarence, Cornwall and Gloucester- all of them challenged the others for the throne and that doesn't even include the 8 daughters who would have at least a claim through their male heirs.

                  York and Lancaster, of course, became the main players in this back and forth. It was actually Margaret of Anjou who made the Lancaster side so strong for so long, despite the fact that Henry VI was such a weak link after Henry Vth died way too young.

                  Henry the VIIth of course did win eventually even though he had to marry Elizabeth of York to cement his claim and finally put an end to this incredibly long civil war.

                  But it doesn't mean that he was a nice guy or that Richard was a monster. It was the way the heirs decided who would hold the power in the 13th and 14th century.

                  In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                  by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 08:23:14 PM PST

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                  •  richard was a monster (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vcmvo2, citylights, radarlady

                    long before he had the princes killed. he was his brother's enforcer, and ruthless at it. of course, margaret was ruthless herself, and her troops were responsible for the worst atrocities against civilians- despite the decades of war, and the devastation to the houses of edward iii's heirs, the wars actually had little impact on the civilian population. and as gruesome as some of the battles were, none lasted more than a day.

                    the tydor claim came through edmund, son of owyn, but only because he married margaret beaufort, who by then, thanks to the wars and executions killing all male heirs in the somerset line, was senior survivor of gaunt's line.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:23:09 PM PST

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                    •  Yes Margaret Beaufort (4+ / 0-)

                      was critical in the whole thing. What I find interesting in the history of these civil wars is how many strong women were involved despite the fact that it was not a typical role for women. Eleanor of Aquitaine, Margaret of Anjou and Margaret Beaufort were amazing women.

                      The men were ruthless and of course Warwick kept switching sides in an attempt to be the Kingmaker. The times were barbaric and unless you had a really strong king like Henry Vth, there was guaranteed to be trouble. Edward IV really set up the whole thing by marrying Elizabeth Woodville over Warwick's objections. Once Edward died all hell broke loose.

                      In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                      by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:58:27 PM PST

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                      •  and the marriage to elizabeth (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        citylights, radarlady, vcmvo2, Dvalkure

                        already was creating problems during edward's lifetime, because his inner circle began to doubt him, and the way he favored her family, and married her female relatives to all the kingdom's most prominent men, alienated warwick, who wanted a couple of those men for his daughters.

                        but henry v himself had a complex legacy, still trying to justify his father's completely unjustified usurpation, while hypocritically trying to conquer france for a claim through a female ancestor (edward ii's wife, isabella, last surviving capetian heir) while denying a similar claim to the mortimers in england through clarence, the latter getting him killed before his son was even born...

                        the bottom line is that this ruling monarchy stuff just doesn't work...

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:31:37 PM PST

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                        •  Yep! (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Laurence Lewis, Dvalkure

                          A ruling monarchy, no matter how attractive the myths surrounding their reign is just not responsive to their subjects needs.

                          They are brought up not to govern but to fight wars and take territory for the greater glory of their treasury and God!

                          In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                          by vcmvo2 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 07:07:07 AM PST

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                          •  And this differs from today's Repub. Party in (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vcmvo2

                            what respect ???!! Okay, not allowed to stab your opponent with a sword 'til he dies.

                             Major Political figures of both parties, of course, but I feel the R's are worse and more blatant offenders. Ambition and ruthlessness never seem to go out of fashion.

                             Although, we Hippies did try !

                            “Good things don’t come to those who wait. They come to those who agitate!” Julian Bond

                            by Dvalkure on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 11:24:12 AM PST

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                      •  and btw... (6+ / 0-)

                        i recently bought, but haven't read, nancy goldstone's four queens. and i plan to do a photo diary or two on eleanor of aquitaine, when i have the time. i've been to most of her main haunts, from poitiers to bordeaux to paris to winchester and old sarum to chinon to fontevrault.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:36:45 PM PST

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      •  Your sig line (0+ / 0-)

        Beautiful lines, but they weren't RFK's - he got them from Aeschylus, a great Greek playwright.  !

        •  I do know thanks! (0+ / 0-)

          I couldn't fit it all in my sig line. RFK used his favorite poet Aeschylus's line during his talk on MLK's assassination while he was campaigning in Indiana in 1968.

          In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

          by vcmvo2 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 09:52:19 AM PST

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    •  I'm not so sure he wanted the crown (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2

      so much as he saw no other realistic way to survive then to seize it as the boys appear to have been fully under the influence of the Woodvilles.

      "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

      by Andrew C White on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 04:46:30 PM PST

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