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View Diary: Hey Shithead Bigots - You got your wish... GBCW (329 comments)

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  •  In my opinion, it does not follow that if an (7+ / 0-)

    American Citizen resents the incredible power that the pro-Israel lobby  has to influence policy in this country, that person is anti-semitic.  Many Americans don't have great feelings toward AIPAC--- but Americans don't have good feelings toward lobbyists in general.  

    I did not participate in the diaries you cite as evidence of hatred and bigotry at DKos, but your examples seem to indicate dislike for AIPAC, not hatred toward Jews.  

    As I said, I didn't read those diaries or comments, so I could be missing something...

    •  To VB1, dislike for AIPAC equated to hatred of (5+ / 0-)

      Jews.  At least in the diaries I've on the issue.

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:20:20 PM PST

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      •  No, that's not fair (2+ / 0-)
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        Hey338Too, JNEREBEL

        Saying AIPAC is running US foreign policy FOR Israel is not fair.  Saying anyone who doesn't think Israel is the devil has dual loyalty is not fair.  

        •  Did somebody say this? (0+ / 0-)

          Actually, I don't think dual loyalty is such a horrible thing... but is anybody here implying that Israel is the devil?

          You are obviously feeling offended, and I'm interested in what made you feel that way...  not that I want to make you relive the pain-- but do you have links to some more egregious quotes?

          There is obvious resentment, demonstrated in the quoted examples in this diary, toward AIPAC and toward members of our own government who bend over backwards for Israel-- while Israel is not reciprocating with moves that would be in America's best interest.  Is that unfair to say?  Netanyahu has tried to undermine Obama on several occasions, and I don't especially want our country to be goaded into war with Iran.  But this doesn't make me resentful toward the people of Israel.

          •  This is a longstanding (3+ / 0-)
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            JNEREBEL, juca, Hey338Too

            problem on this board and I'm really too busy to dig up the quotes.  In fact, a group of us wrote a group diary about anti-semitism on this board several years ago that garnered over 1400 posts.  There are plenty of links there.

            The diary in question is the problem.  The implication was that since the republicans hounded Mr. Hagel about his views on Israel, it's obvious that Israel is the problem.  

            Since Mr. Hagel went ahead and apologized for referring to the "Jewish lobby", perhaps he reconsidered such an inflammatory remark (or perhaps he was only looking to get confirmed - I have no way of knowing what is in his heart).

            I'll keep my feelings about The Troubadour to myself but you may want to ask the question as to why a Jewish person who only has negative things to say about Israel is such a hit around here.

          •  I'm sorry, I didn't answer you (1+ / 0-)
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            last paragraph and it's an important point.  I'm not a fan of AIPAC, they are much too far to the right for my taste.  But I don't think they're evil.  I also don't see what you see - that our government "bends over backwards" for Israel to the detriment of the US.

            And I think Bibi is an asshole.

            •  Just want to clarify... (2+ / 0-)
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              leftynyc, jeff in nyc

              I don't necessarily think that our government, as a whole, bends over backwards for Israel... just certain members of Congress seem to, at times, without full consideration for America's interests.  This is surely something they feel is important to do for thier voters-- but also gives Bibi the idea that he can pressure Obama by going around him and appealing to Congress directly.  I'm certainly no expert on relations with Israel... just an impression I have.

              Also, I didn't really expect you to spend time searching for quotes when I could have done so myself... just thought you might have a particular conversation in mind that pissed you off.  Guess it is more of a systemic, ongoing problem.

              I've certainly been aware of tensions that so often arise here when we talk about Israel.  I've often been puzzled by the anger that erupts, as with volleyboy, when the quotes he used as examples didn't seem all that horrible to me.  Bottom line is, that I'm trying to understand.

              I see now, that the frustration  builds over time and boils over at some point.  I will look up the diary you mentioned from several years ago, and will go back and read some of the comments in the diary that angered volleyboy1.

              Thanks for helping me understand...

              •  I've learned (1+ / 0-)
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                that things simply sound different to different people.  Volley is a good friend of mine and feels very passionately about this issue while others merely look at it as foreign policy.  

                I have seen many, many comments that have left me wondering if the poster either really means what they're saying, whether they're just looking for a fight or whether they've considered the history involved.  Everyone comes from their own life's experiences and when those clash - the sparks fly.

                I hope you do find that diary - a lot of thought was put into it and the comments were mostly incredibly supportive and helpful to everyone in better understanding the situation.

                Peace to you and yours.

                •  I think it is easy to sound insensitive when we (1+ / 0-)
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                  don't fully understand where people are coming from.

                  So far, I've gone back to read Troubador's diary-- I avoided it the other day because I knew, just from the title, that the comments would get ugly.

                  I found the Republican questioning of Hagel so offensive, that I probably wouldn't have thought  twice about the diary, had I read it a couple of days ago.  I do understand why it was offensive to you and Volley.  I'm going to look through the comments, too (sigh).

                  I will look for the older diary--- I would very much like to read it.  

                  •  I found the diary (1+ / 0-)
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                    It now has over 1600 comments.  I was part of the group of people who published it.


                    •  Thanks so much, leftynyc. (1+ / 0-)
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                      I remember the diary now that I see it again, and had rec'd it back then.  I know I didn't follow all of the links, though, so I'm taking the time to look at many of them now.

                      I see what you mean about some of the awful comments that have been made!  What I see so far is that there are flashes of anger and insensitivity, some ignorance about Israel, and some users who just plain like to poke the beehive with a stick on various issues.  Some anti-semitism to be sure.

                      I'm going to study this a bit more, and try to be more sensitive to it in the future.  I admit that when tempers start to flare in certain threads, I often flee, and if others do this too, that leaves just a few people to go after the abusers.  I'm not making excuses, though, maybe in the future I will stick around and help out.  

                      I've noticed in going over some of these old threads, that I can quickly lose track of what is actually being said, or implied, because I don't follow the I/P issues as closely as some others do.  It might go over my head when someone I've never heard of is quoted and I don't realize that the very mention of that particular author is offensive to some people here.  So sometimes I just don't feel qualified to open my mouth.  

                      Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you've taken your time to enlighten me!  I hope we can all work to avoid losing more people to frustrations like this.

                  •  By the way (1+ / 0-)
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                    The original group of signers was only around 10 of us - all those other names asked to be added on in solidarity after reading the diary.  I'm very thankful that you're checking it out.

            •  Not actually for Israel (1+ / 0-)
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              For the fundamentally anti-Semitic Christian Armageddonists who want "the Jews" to kill off all of "the Muslims" and nearly all get killed themselves just so that the surviving Jews can convert to Christianity.

              It is entirely correct to say that many Republicans are against the interests of the United States on a wide range of issues having to do with the economy, science, race, bigotry, misogyny, Mammonism, and furriners. It's nothing to do with any ZOG theories.

              Gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 01:04:07 PM PST

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              •  That's another important point (0+ / 0-)

                While so many here used Joe Lieberman as the epitome of dual loyalty Jew, it's actually the Christians that push for letting Israel do whatever it wants.  They're representing evangelicals for those fantasy end times reasons.  I've seen the dual loyalty charge here many times along with the there are too many Jews in Congress meme.  It seems every single diary about Israel turns into a crap fest and many comments get hidden...I don't blame Markos at all for keeping it off the front page.

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