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View Diary: Megan Phelps-Roper leaves Westboro Baptist Church (330 comments)

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  •  I hope it is the end of Westboro (4+ / 0-)

    I truly do.  That said, I will never forgive her - she doesn't deserve it.  She never will and never can.

    She didn't just have 'icky' feelings about people, she actively worked to hurt other human beings.  I know that religion is all about forgiveness - that anything you do can be forgiven.

    I believe that some things kill the soul.  Some things cannot, and should not, ever be forgiven.

    Her family's, and her, actions are one of those things.  There is no forgiveness, there is no penance that could ever be enough.

    May she, and her family, fucking rot for all of eternity.

    Democracy, if done properly, is rude, messy, and loud

    by allensl on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 07:27:14 PM PST

    •  The way you are talking its as if they killed (24+ / 0-)

      people or something. Yes, what they did was horrible, yes she has a lot to do to make up for what she did. And yes I think we need to see a lot more than just a few apologies and TV appearances, or as Steveningen mentioned downthread, a tell all book. She needs to apologize to all of the families, and do some real good in the world to make up for it.

      But what is this about not wanting them to have forgiveness, for them to have eternal hell fire visited upon them? Isn't that just as bad as them? What about love and redemption?

      If someone falls, it shouldn't be the end of them forever. Those who fall farther have higher to climb to make up for it, but it doesn't mean they should be trapped in a bottomless pit of no return.

      •  Forgive them if you like. There are people who (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        averybird, Rich Boucher

        have personal, deep and long experience with this maniacs.

        They are evil bad people.   She might deserve forgiveness someday, but it isn't the first day she says "sorry;" not after leading and organizing their hate campaigns in a very active way.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 09:01:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I said, she has a ways to go (10+ / 0-)

          apologies to make, things to do, she has a ways to climb. But my reply was in response to someone saying that they should never have forgiveness ever, that it cannot be had. I disagree strongly with such a stance.

          Yes, what she did was very wrong, and as I mentioned in my comment, there is definitely work to be done to be absolved of what she has done. But I simply disagree with the notion that she should never be forgiven no matter what she does to make up for it.

          •  well.... I personally don't feel bound to forgive (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            averybird, OleHippieChick

            anyone, regardless.  Of course, I was a personal target.

            I actually have doubts that it is possible to make up for what she's done.  What about the parents of the children whose funerals were picketed who have since passed away?  How do you make up for the hurt you caused those people?  What about the horrified grandparents who didn't think there were people so horrible anywhere in the world, upon walking out of their loved one's church and seeing GOD HATES F@GS! or F@GGOTS BURN IN HELL!

            What about their children, now possibly orphans, who witnessed that?  Matthew Shepards' friends and family?  

            That's a pretty big row to hoe.  Maybe in 30-40 years, I'll rethink my position, if she proves not to be scamming us all again.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 09:28:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is a reason that progressives (15+ / 0-)

              don't believe children should be sentenced as adults.  Yes, she is now an adult, however, she was brainwashed from childhood and forced as a child to do this stuff (forced through violence and total deprivation of any other ideas and influences.)  Her actions hurt people but she is also a victim of Phelps.  To realize this in her 20's is pretty brave and self-aware, which given the lack of contact with the larger culture, speaks highly of her.

              To hate her is to hate the wrong person. If you must hate, hate the man who warped and poisoned this child's life, and celebrate that she was able to see through it and leave.

              •  I don't need a lecture from you on what this (5+ / 0-)

                family is like. Or what they did, when and to whom.  I lived with their vile attacks, in person, for years. One of their family members (neighbors said it was several) literally nailed a threatening letter to the front door of my house.

                I didn't say I hate her, but that's a long way from saying I forgive her, period.

                You're pretty quick to decide how "progressives" should behave in the face of evil.  Isn't another progressive value that we don't believe in telling other people how to think and feel?

                You don't know that she was brainwashed (although that is highly likely). All you know is that she now, allegedly, reportedly, wishes to escape this evil cult.

                If she is truly repentant, good for her, but forgiveness by her victims is still a leap that you do not get to decide for others.

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:43:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nobody is trying to decide for others (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LSophia, YucatanMan, Lonely Texan

                  I think those arguing with you are trying to express a wish for both her AND you, each of you in your own time and --  at least in the short term -- according to your will.

                  I say "short term" because I had no intention of ever forgiving my torturer, EVER. It was inconceivable to me. And one day when I was about 55, I thought of him and it dawned on me that forgiveness had happened without my attention or volition. Well, dammit....

                  Peace out.

                  YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

                  by raincrow on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:37:55 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Nothing personal. But seriously. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:44:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do know. I grew up in a situation very (20+ / 0-)

                  much like hers.  I'm truly sorry for the pain you suffered from the actions of this group and yes, it is evil.  Absolutely. And forgiveness is not something I can compel anyone to do, nor was that my intent.  My intent was to suggest that the blame lies with the cult leader.

                  I'm not telling you how to feel, or think.  But I do have a right to say how I think also, and feel, as it is highly personal to me, since I know how patriarchal cults work, on a deeply personal level.

                  I know that I personally, was 35 before I was mentally an adult, due to being raised in a very similar manner to her.  (Although I never picketed anything, or spread hate in such a way, because it wasn't required, I was not aware that parents didn't make dictate the world for children until well into my 20's.) I'd like to extend the same benefit of the doubt to her that I needed.

              •  One thing I feel is important to mention. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan

                While her statement did strike me as sincere, I find it interesting that even though she says she regrets hurting people, she can't say that she would go back and change her life.

                I'm sorry, but you regret doing what you did, but wouldn't change it?

                •  Yeah, her statement is super messed up (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MichiganGirl

                  because she is messed up imo.  It took me twenty years to go from "My parents are wrong about some things and I want to live differently" to "My parents are truly evil".  Not only was she brainwashed, but by her parents.  That bond is astoundingly strong.  And all sorts of developmental processes now have to happen that should have happened at a younger age.  We may never get to hear or see where she goes, developmentally.  But it will take a long long time.

                  •  It just seems (0+ / 0-)

                    disningenuous to me to say that you know now that what you did was wrong, but you wouldn't go back and change what you did.

                    •  I can understand the thought process.. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LSophia, Cassandra Waites

                      I have watched some documentaries on the Phelps clan, and it is a VERY abusive group, even among its own.

                      So yeah, I can see how it is possible for her to feel bad for the things that she did, but wouldn't go back and change it, because it seems entirely likely that if she had done things differently, she, her sisters, other loved ones, etc. would have been punished, and punished severely.

                      Note how she waited until her sister was of legal age until she left, so she could take her with her....

                      I even have a personal antidote from within my family that sort of follows the same line...

                      One of my Aunties found out her husband was molesting her daughters. They were both under the age of 5.

                      She shot and killed him, went to prison. Spent the full 25 year sentence, because when she went up for parole when they asked if she had the chance if she would change what she did, and she always said "no"...

                      She to this very day says she regrets killing him, because she missed such a huge chunk of her daughter's lives wasn't there when her grandbabies were born, etc.... but she also says that she would never change what she did either, because for her, at the time; it was the only acceptable option she had available.

                      The laws were different then, children didn't have the legal protections they have now. This was back in the late 50's, if she tried to divorce him more likely than not, he'd of ended up with the kids.

                      Sometimes people do bad things to protect their loved ones, they may regret those actions because they knew they were wrong.... but they'd do it again in a heartbeat too, because that was what they had to do.

                      I think that may be the case here, judging by her timing, waiting until she could legally take her little sister with her.

                      "It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." Oscar Wilde, 1891

                      by MichiganGirl on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:09:53 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Everyone's going to have a different yardstick. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          YucatanMan, Lonely Texan

          Just as repentance is difficult for many, so too is forgiveness.

          Some feel that simply walking away from the hurtful/wrong actions earns forgiveness, while others want/need to see a more active and/or public atonement from the person who wronged them.  For some, forgiveness will simply never be possible, regardless of the actions later taken by the person who hurt them.  All of these reactions fall on the spectrum of "human nature." We should keep that in mind as we read each other's responses.

          Let's see what she does after she spend a little time putting down roots in reality.

    •  I suspect you confound forgiveness (30+ / 0-)

      with absolution. She may not deserve to be released from the guilt of what she has done, to escape punishment for her behavior, or avoid any obligation to make amends. This, though, is not forgiveness, it is absolution.

      You feel she does not deserve absolution, and probably feel quite rightly that she may never be adequately punished for the pain she has inflicted on others. But you, allensl, do not deserve to carry around your anger over that within you for all of eternity. Let it go.  

      Forgiveness is you releasing your anger towards her for what she has done. It means letting go of the corrosive feelings within yourself that have the potential to kill the soul... your soul. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.  

      "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

      by Orinoco on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 08:54:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hope no cult member seeking a way out ever (27+ / 0-)

      comes to you seeking help.  Attitudes like yours will lead them right back into the cult.

    •  Well, there's a way to encourage change. (24+ / 0-)

      Seriously, protesting funerals can't be forgiven? Ever. No matter if she was raised to this and knew no better and still somehow came around? Never forgiven?

      And folks say religious people are tough on sin.

      www.stacysmusings.wordpress.com

      by Magenta on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 09:33:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The answer is NO. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        larissa2, YucatanMan

        You asked, "Seriously, protesting funerals can't be forgiven? Ever. No matter if she was raised to this and knew no better and still somehow came around? Never forgiven?"

        The answer is no. Protesting funerals cannot be forgiven. I think people are here today are getting a little "forgiveness"-happy.

        These assholes had a "countdown" that numbered the amount of days that Matthew Shepard was in "Hell". And Megan was a part of this.

        So, my answer to you is no, there is no forgiveness. Not for what she, and they, did. Period.

      •  People are a bit too quick to reduce what this (5+ / 0-)

        group does to a one hour picket of a funeral on an off occasion.

        No.

        They hounded and hounded people. Day and night. Home, play and work.  They closed down businesses.  They ran people out of their jobs.  They are certainly responsible for at least a few suicides, a few of which I am intimately familiar.

        They sought ways to get people into legal trouble, filed false claims, pursued people in court to the point that Fred Sr was disbarred before both Federal and State courts (but that alone took years and the self-disqualification of practically every state and federal judge in Kansas, requiring bringing in other judges).

        They literally destroyed people's lives on purpose, over and over.  They drove people into financial ruin and shut down lifelong small businesses.

        The general public thinks, "Oh, it was just a couple hours at a funeral. That's hurtful. That's distasteful."

        No.

        It was much, much more than that.  And only the people who have been hounded know how truly horrible it is.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:57:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  She's 27. (7+ / 0-)

          I was not much younger than she is when I realized bile-spewing religious fundie conservative wasn't who I wanted to be, and I was permitted to associate with people outside my cult.

          What she has done is the rational extension of her upbringing. As she has grown into an adult, she has realized that what she's done is not the act of compassion she's been conditioned from birth to believe it is, meaning that against all odds she's developed empathy in that place.

          Her awakening deserves praise. Forgiveness is not something deserved, but it should be given, if nothing else because leaving those who flee as outcasts doesn't give much incentive to those who might be afraid to leave.

          They're taught that everyone hates them because of who they are. If that's proven not true, then Fred and Shirley lose a huge part of what keeps the cult together.

          And more than I want retribution for what they've done, I want them to stop. One of them has stopped. A few dozen more and it's be a couple old angry people considered too ridiculous to be offensive.

          "All things are true. Even false things. Don't ask me, man, I didn't do it." -Mitt Romney

          by Geiiga on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:18:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sure this is really the case: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maf1029
            They're taught that everyone hates them because of who they are. If that's proven not true, then Fred and Shirley lose a huge part of what keeps the cult together.
            That's more what people outside assume is the case.

            My belief is that they are taught that they, and only they, know the right way to live and that they are special in "god's" eyes.  Therefore, they must impart that wisdom to others in a way that will, in the words of all teabaggers, "Wake up! America!"

            They are taught that they are righteous and doing the "good work."   Not that everyone hates them.

            Perhaps everyone does.  But I don't think that's what they are taught.

            I guess I'm splitting hairs, but that's the way I see it.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:27:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can be taught both at the same time. (5+ / 0-)

              That you have the truth AND that everyone hates you because you are following the truth.

              I got lesser versions of both in the SBC church I grew up in.

              Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

              by Cassandra Waites on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:33:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, you are right. I think this article (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Catte Nappe, Lonely Texan, maf1029

                brings up some interesting points to all of this:

                http://www.kansascity.com/...  (hat tip to Catte Nappe for sharing this link with me)

                Even though they all went to public schools, high schools, colleges, they really didn't make all that many friends and focused on the cult.

                But the article does seem to show that they are fairly happy there, not caring about what others think.  Of course, can one reporter really penetrate and portray what goes on in people's minds in one article.

                Still, a very interesting article.

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:43:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I used the past tense in my comment above. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maf1029

          Their practices continue to this day.

          There isn't anything past tense about their continued efforts to literally destroy people's lives.  

          The funeral picketing is a publicity sideshow.  Their real evil is the targeting and hounding of specific people.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:19:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  you don't get to say she's unforgiven (0+ / 0-)

          thank goodness

          Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

          by AntonBursch on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:00:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Right with you on this, Allen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YucatanMan

      Absolutely seconding what you say here. There is NO FORGIVENESS for the acts that Megan and her family committed. None.

    •  According to Scripture, the only unforgivable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CoyoteMarti, raincrow

      sin, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Matthew 12:31:

      "31 Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. "

      Everything else is forgivable.

      Matthew 18:21-22:

      "21 Then Peter came and said to him, “Lord, if another member of the church[g] sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times."

      Perhaps the WBC should not be forgiven (they are still actively sinning), but I think Megan should at least be given a chance for forgiveness.  

      Remember, forgiveness isn't saying, "I will treat you as though you never sinned against me."  Forgiveness is "I choose to let what you did no longer have power over me. "  You don't have to associate with that person or be their friend or think that they're just the schnizz.  But you can let go of your anger and hate, so they stop having power over you.

      Forgiveness ain't easy, is it?

      •  OF course, the Bible is such an authority on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan, Caipirinha

        such things - not.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:26:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's as much an authority as you are. not at all. (0+ / 0-)

          Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

          by AntonBursch on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:01:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ah yes, the ad hominem attack, the last (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maf1029

            defence of the indefensible.

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

            by enhydra lutris on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 07:11:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  how is saying that neither you nor the bible (0+ / 0-)

              are a moral authority an ad hominem attack?

              i'm sorry, but do you think that you are a moral authority?

              Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

              by AntonBursch on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:08:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You attacked me as a person, I commented on (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                maf1029

                a moldy old piece of fiction written by an ad hoc crowd of volunteers most of whom had no knowledge of or involvement with tht which they purport to report on. The comment I replied to started off mentioning blasphemy, of all the ludicrous numbnuts horseshit, and then moved on to old "no credibility Matthew". The tiny fraction of the book that recommends forgiveness is putatively ultimately sourced from a character who himself reserves the right and expresses the intent to condemn some persons to eternal torment. Yeah, real forgiving.

                I, of course, cannot know anything because I am not the bible. Other than that, just how ignorant am I of the relevant bits of psychology, philosophy, sociology and non-christian theology? You do know my history, right?

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                by enhydra lutris on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:51:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  i didn't attack you at all (0+ / 0-)

                  i just stated that there is no singular moral authority in the world.  not you.  not the bible.  not anyone or anything.  that's all i said.

                  on a side note.  as it happens, i studied theology at seminary after high school when i was planning to be a minister.  i graduated and interned as a minister for a couple years, but then quit because i didn't accept a god who tortures people.

                  that said, i don't think it's clear that jesus ever taught eternal damnation.  then again, i don't think it's certain there ever was a jesus, so, you know.

                  Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

                  by AntonBursch on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 10:32:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I suppose if everyone were required to conform to (0+ / 0-)

        the same beliefs that would matter.  There's a lot of preaching of personal beliefs in these comments.

        I'm happy others feel kind and generous.  The world certainly needs more of that in every way.

        I don't have any hate for Megan or Fred.  But to stretch that into kindly thoughts or forgiveness or putting aside the horrific damage they have done -- very much on purpose, willingly, cheerfully, enthusiastically -- is another thing entirely.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:59:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Allow me to repeat - (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maf1029

          Forgiveness is choosing to not let the person/people in question have power over you.

          You don't have to like them afterwards. You don't have to associate with them afterwards.  You don't have to think they're great people, afterwards.  You don't even have to think about them, afterwards.  

          But you will be free of them, afterwards.

          And that's really the point.

          Oh, and I chose Scripture as support because that's what Megan believes - personally, I'm a secular humanist.

          •  I'd say "what we are told Megan believes." (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maf1029

            I see the Jeff Chu articles as puff pieces, as I explained in a recent comment below.

            I'll wait and see.

            Meanwhile, the Phelps have no power over me. I'm not angry, have no heartburn, don't care what happens to them.  But I will tell the truth about my experiences regarding them because people need to know the damage they have caused far and wide.

            If "no power" is the definition of "forgiven" then that's already happened, long ago and hundreds of miles away.  

            I see "forgiven" as a more active act.  And that's probably not going to happen.  I am extremely indifferent about all of the Phelps. Indifferent.  

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:56:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Part of you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow

      ..has apparently already rotted.

      Cogito, ergo Democrata.

      by Ahianne on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 07:46:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is a truly awful thing to say to someone. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rich Boucher, fiddlingnero

        Just because someone does not comply with your belief system is no reason to issue an insult in that way.

        Highly judgmental of you, I think.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:00:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's not awful to call a lack of mercy soul rot (0+ / 0-)

          it's generous and assumes that the person at least once had a soul that valued people enough to see that they are redeemable

          especially people born and raised in a hellish life

          Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

          by AntonBursch on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:06:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You did nothing to rescue children you knew were (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow, Minnesota Deb

      being abused by Fred Phelps.  You left her there for 20 years.  

      Now you are hating her to cover your guilt for what you didn't do.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:29:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Again, complaints were made numerous times (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tytalus

        to the state child protective services.  The state decided to do nothing.  Legally, there is nothing more the public can do.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:01:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well Then (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lonely Texan

          Since you share some common ground recognizing that the children connected with the cult grew up in an abusive environment could that lead to some recognition that the children indoctrinated in that abuse are at least to some degree victims as well, instead of just being monsters?

          If you can see someone as a hybrid victim/monster instead of just being a monster might that lead to laying down the lash for a while when one of the victim/monsters does finally get herself out of the cult?

          •  I don't think I've lashed anyone. Your perception (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maf1029

            may differ.

            I don't trust anything any Phelps says about anything.  

            If she truly has left and changes her life, good for her.  But that doesn't require my actively thinking about her or having any sort of wishes for her one way or the other.

            Her (and her sister's) actions will tell the truth.  We'll see.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:23:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed (5+ / 0-)

              I agree that it takes time and actions speak louder than words.  Her initial statements are a step in the right direction but still don't see the WBC the way we do.

              For the most part I approach this from a pretty pragmatic place.  I want the WBC to wither and die as fast as possible, so I want it to be easy for people to leave the WBC, even if they take longer than I think they should to come to that decision.  Nobody says you have to think anything about her or say anything about her.  But, if you choose to, and you have, then it seems to me that a message that she won't be accepted outside the WBC only reinforces Phelps' stranglehold on the cult, and is counterproductive.  It may feel good, but encouraging the WBC to wither and die because people leave is more important than feeling good.

        •  What does legality have to do with morality? n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lonely Texan
          •  Do you advocate that people go around kidnapping (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe, fiddlingnero, maf1029

            other children because they believe they are being raised improperly?

            I'm not sure what "morality" you are advocating that people follow.... ?

            Morally, what could people do?  The children were not locked away. They were properly fed, clothed, housed. They attended public schools from kindergarten through college.  They were (physically) healthy. They traveled to libraries, school, museums, parks, etc, on their own, free to move about without supervision when they were old enough.

            What would people propose be done?

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:53:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  just shut your ignorant mouth already (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              DSPS owl

              you don't know what the fuck you are talking about

              Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

              by AntonBursch on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:12:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Seriously, what do you propose the general public (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                maf1029

                do?  

                You weren't involved directly with these people for a decade or so.  I was. In fact I do know what I was talking about in relationship to these people.

                What action does someone recommend that the general public take after state social services determines the children are not at risk?  Any ideas?

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:09:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  "Should not ever be forgiven" (4+ / 0-)

      You have no idea of the power of a cult. I see the effects of cult damage routinely, I live in Utah and fundi Mormons have left their living debris all over the state.

      Educate yourself.

      Recent survivors see how they are dressed? I see women like this in stores frequently.

      Ruby is now free!

      And don't forget the Lost Boys

      Cults are Hell on earth. WBC is just one loud but tiny one, there are so many people being destroyed by these vultures.

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:59:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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