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View Diary: While you're listening to politicians argue about guns, check out how many Americans have died (123 comments)

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  •  Suicides are homicides. Accidents are homicides. (6+ / 0-)

    You're just making distinctions without a difference in order to make a smaller number.    

    Not that it works: even the smallest number that you can work up by deciding that various types of homicides are acceptable is pretty horrendous.  Isn't it.

    That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

    by Inland on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:34:31 PM PST

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    •  A suicide is NOT a homicide. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VetGrl, DSPS owl

      A homicide is "an act of a human killing another human."

      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

      by Neuroptimalian on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 05:36:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The distinction does matter. (0+ / 0-)

      The dead are just as dead, to be sure, but there are those who insist on suicide as a right.

      Not sure that, absent a very limited set of circumstances, that many argue for homicide as a right.

      The ready availability of firearms probably does increase the number of successful suicides.  Hard to be certain because there is so much at play culturally WRT suicides, but there is one very big difference I can think of:

      If somebody is trying to murder you with a weapon other than a gun, you are often in a much better position to fight back or run away.

      In the case of a suicide, "victim" and perpetrator are the same person -- fighting back or runniny away is not an issue.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 04:42:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  More guns = More successful suicides (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        frazer, tb mare

        Harvard Study

        The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States.  The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling.
        After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.
        States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide.  This relationship held for both genders and all age groups.  It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment.  There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide.
        Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.
        We analyzed data on suicide and suicide attempts for states in the Northeast.  Even after controlling for rates of attempted suicide, states with more guns had higher rates of suicide.
        We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year olds and 45 to 84 year olds, but not for 25 to 44 year olds.
        Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts
        Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families.
        Respondents with firearms in the home were no more likely to report suicidal thoughts, plans or attempts, but if they had a suicidal plan, it was much more likely to involve firearms.  The higher rates of suicide among gun owners and their families cannot be explained by higher rates of suicidal behavior, but can be explained by easy access to a gun.
        Across the Northeast, case fatality rates ranged from over 90% for firearms to under 5% for drug overdoses, cutting and piercing (the most common methods of attempted suicide).  Hospital workers rarely see the type of suicide (firearm suicide) that is most likely to end in death.
        This summary of the scientific literature on suicide in the United States emphasizes the importance of levels of household firearm ownership in explaining different rates of suicide over time and across states, households and genders.
        The vast majority of suicide attempts in the US are by less-lethal means such as drug overdose, cutting, etc. which have about a 5% success rate. Firearms have a 90% success rate. The less-lethal ones are more often a call for help.

        There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

        by OHeyeO on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 06:03:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The less-lethal ones are more often a call for (0+ / 0-)

          help.

          That seems like an admission that the difference between firearms attempts and others is more than the choice of weapons.

          One interesting question:

          Firearms with a 90% success rate are a "one-and-done".

          Others are a "try, try, again".

          How many people keep on trying?

          In the absence of firearms, what percentage of "other" attempts would succeed?

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 07:47:26 PM PST

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          •  So, you think it's better... (0+ / 0-)

            ...someone is successful once rather than unsuccessful two or three times?

            There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

            by OHeyeO on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:05:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  What about teens and early-20s? (0+ / 0-)

            Do you think it's better they have easier access to a 90% successful suicide method? A lot of teens and those in the 20-22 age range run through temporary emotional turmoil as they lose the innocence of youth, figure out who they are and how to deal with the difficulties of adulthood.

            Your comment seems to indicate the "one and done" is better than to be unsuccessful with the chance what is causing the suicidal thoughts can be overcome.

            There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

            by OHeyeO on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:15:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Suicides aren't accidents, though accidental (0+ / 0-)

      homicides do include ooopsies with one's own gun.

      "I'll press your flesh, you dimwitted sumbitch! " -Pappy O'Daniel

      by jakewaters on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 06:01:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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