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  •  The RCC must confront child abuse (9+ / 0-)

    that's the next guy's 1st responsibility

    •  They think they have (15+ / 0-)

      already done that.  Our priest had the nerve to spout off, again, about how we are losing our religious liberty because supposed Catholic institutions have to have some contact with birth control and abortions.  They even are held to hiring people who might use both!!!! As I eye rolled and watched many other's twisted looks of incredulity, I again realized how absolutely out of touch these men are.  They have no credibility because of the scandal and their response and their results. So shut up.

      Everyone! Arms akimbo!

      by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:37:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did You Say Anything? (7+ / 0-)

        Jesus would have said his corporation lost its moral authority on sex issues, not to be regained until it's redeemed itself from its baby raping sins. And that it hasn't even confessed to them yet, let alone repented.

        Eyerolls don't redeem anyone.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 05:28:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I am big on blasting all of them (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tom Anderson

          including my pastor.  No one defending any of it gets a pass including my own mother, who doesn't think it should affect the rest of the church.  Few bad apples and all.

          Everyone! Arms akimbo!

          by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:32:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Catholics have priests (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry, but if we are talking about the Catholic Church, we do not call them pastors.

            Yes, the Church has many ills. I am not defending any of them.  But we need to make sure we are all talking about the same thing, yes?

            •  Well I'll defend them (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ReneInOregon

              Because there's no group on the planet that's outlasted the Church, they've done lots of good, their parishioners have good hearts as a rule (on BOTH sides of the political fence), and their priests work their asses off for a spirit.

              Just like public schools in this fucked up country, or in the workplaces in this fucked up world, there are TONS of bad apples that hurt innocents. Shit. happens. And this nanny-ass society would have us believe that shit never happened before little Jim Bob got raped by the family priest. That's bullshit.

              What people might not like, that they can't be Occupied, or that they're ancient, doesn't matter one damned whit to me. It's the ONLY institution that teaches us to put others before ourselves, to respect everybody as if they're God, and yes, that everybody has a place and a purpose.

              Nuns do nun shit; they don't (or shouldn't) want to do priest stuff. If they do, they're disordered and should GTFO. It's not, and never has been, any person's Church; it's God's place.

              They were THE FIRST of ALL YOUR FOREFATHERS to decry slavery (HUNDREDS of years before America was even born). They were THE FIRST to give women equal work in the Church. They were THE FIRST, by eons, to support SCIENCE and WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

              And this guy, Pope Benedict, has done more to make peace in the world than AN.Y.BO.DY that speaks a Western language.

              No, they don't like condoms, because they don't think OUR PRIMARY GOAL IN LIFE should be sex, but rather helping people. People in TRUE NEED, not people who feel bad that they can't same-sex marry. They don't GAS about who you're with! They want you to be USEFUL to society, and oh, guess what: marriage is a curse! Romantic love is fine/great, but sticking with that person as long as you live is "Marriage", NOT feeling romantic or sexay for a few days, then poof it's over. I'm not "the Church", but I'd bet if people gave up DIVORCE, the Church would let you be with a damned dog if that's what you wanted. (Well, not bestiality, because that's truly gross and the animal  can't give consent).

              Why? Because the curse is that you're stuck with that sonofabitch for life; there can be romantic days, good days, bad days, HELL DAYS... those are the vows. Only out is if the bitch or bastard is crazy. THAT'S "Church Marriage". Has nothing at all to do with taxes and benefits — that's politics. And again, the Church has outlasted every. single. political. institution. ever. conceived.

              The Church is good; it's the only thing that's good. Because it tells you to get your head out of your own ass and stop bellyaching, and be happy how you are, and HELP PEOPLE. It tells you YOU ARE GOD and, catechized or not, you're responsible for the shit you do. You're responsible for wars, for famine, for not helping others.

              I'll defend the crap out of the Church. I'm not "good", but the Church is good. Stable. People need to stop worrying about, "OH does this shit offend me" and STFU and get out and do some good for others. THAT'S a Catholic. (And you can BE a Catholic without BEING a Catholic, as per Romans 2: if you DO that stuff God would have you do, you're going to move on to the next life and continue to do stuff. Whether you like it or not. And if you are in the Church but are a nuisance to society, you're time will be up.)

              So what if a few Archbishops HOPED, PRAYED, and THOUGHT that moving one man from one child might heal both the man and the child. <--- those guys were wrong! But fuck at least they TRIED. They didn't play hot potato like people claim; they thought, TRULY BELIEVED, they were helping all parties by moving pedos.

              Again, this was before pedophilia was a known disorder. My Mom went to Catholic school and loved it; was never touched. I went to public school and was offered As for favors. Pedos are everywhere. IN FACT, as far as we know, there may be a little pedo in all of us. Maybe one day science will figure that shit out, and that no, we're not all THAT different from each other, but some hold back certain temptations better than others. We ALL have something inherently wrong with us; the Church just calls it a cross to carry. And the Church doesn't make excuses for failure. No excuses. Forgiveness, prayer, etc things that I'M SURE will be found to be revolutionary in a few centuries, even if it's not evolutionary. We take care of our own. But "our own" is EVERY.BODY. If a priest rapes a kid, that's like WE raped the kid.

              And maybe if the rest of the world WAS their brother's keeper like that, accepted responsibility for each other, tried to help instead of hurt or punish, had a little humility, we'd be in a happier state.

              "Ridiculous, counter-productive, and stupid." —P.J. Crowley on the treatment of Bradley Manning

              by IndieinVa on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:56:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Baby Rape is Your Fault (0+ / 0-)
                The Church is good; it's the only thing that's good.
                [...]
                So what if a few Archbishops HOPED, PRAYED, and THOUGHT that moving one man from one child might heal both the man and the child. <--- those guys were wrong! But fuck at least they TRIED. They didn't play hot potato like people claim; they thought, TRULY BELIEVED, they were helping all parties by moving pedos.
                [...]
                And the Church doesn't make excuses for failure. No excuses.

                You don't know what they thought. But we all know what they did: they moved baby rapers around to rape other babies. They protected the baby rapers, and got other babies raped. For decades, generations, evidently for centuries.

                The Church does some good; it does some bad. The Church says people like that go to hell. It's not simply good, and it's damn well not the only thing that's good.

                The Church has made nothing but excuses - where it's broken its silence at all.

                Your post is full of lies, smothered in a demented insistence on moral authority to which you have no legitimate claim.

                You are totally out of your mind. You are the reason the Church lies and denies when it rapes babies over and over: because suckers like you believe its lies. Without lunatics like you accepting the insanity they spew to cover the evil they do, people in the Church wouldn't get away with it. You are the necessary evil that enables their unrepented evil.

                You have no moral standing to preach to anyone, just like the Church you're defending. You all are what's wrong with our civiliation.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:12:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Excuse me. (0+ / 0-)

              My priest is also the pastor of my parish.  I have used that moniker all my Catholic life.

              Everyone! Arms akimbo!

              by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:03:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Catholics Have Pastors (0+ / 0-)
              In United States Catholic usage, the term pastor is used for what in other English-speaking countries is called a parish priest.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 05:13:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I am a recovering Catholic (6+ / 0-)

        The last time I went to Mass it was still in Latin. I left the church because I realized I didn't believe all the stuff they were telling me. My realization of the bigotry and corruption in the church came later (although I was quite aware of the misogyny).  

        I have a lot of trouble understanding why good people like you and some in my family continue to support these horrible people by attending their ceremonies and contributing money and time. Why is there no movement to break off from these relics of the 16th Century?

        You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

        by yellowdog on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 06:47:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am not Catholic so I don't know the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Heianshoka, Tom Anderson

          answer, but I did ask one once. I think that for some it is the "family" feeling and it is a place they "belong". (I put that in quotes because obviously people have no real rights in that institution. And I think the rites being so set comfort those who are afraid of changes. And of course, the church has spent a fortune creating architecture and nomenclature to awe a semi literate audience. (I am speaking of earlier times.) And they used that to drill into people's heads the tenets of the "faith", making sure to get the little ones early.

          I would be much happier with that church if it allowed its nuns to have a seat at the table of power.

          American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

          by glitterscale on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:10:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's also community, (3+ / 0-)

            no different than why people support this place despite the warts -- it's a group that comes together to support one another in crisis. That applies to pretty much any church -- I know that our Episcopal parish did a lot to help after my father-in-law died.

            There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

            by Cali Scribe on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:27:30 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  whoa! There is a big difference (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Back In Blue

              between a community (KOS) where people disagree and or are rude to each other ( that's a community with warts) and the RCC which is evil and corrupt and actively supports child rape (that is a malignant cancer.)

              DON'T CREATE FALSE EQUIVALANCY!

              As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

              by BPARTR on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:54:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Evil through and through, eh? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                El Mito, tobendaro

                I suppose you'd support preemptively rounding up all bishops, priests and nuns and throwing them all in jail since they are all already tried and convicted of "evil" in your eyes?

                Yes this is ridiculous hyperbole as was your original statement.

                We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

                by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:00:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  As a Gay Latin Catholic (4+ / 0-)

                  I really shutter when people malign every member of an institution because of historical shameful acts. We forget those priests and nuns who are there on the ground doing God's work. When I lived in Chile, it was the Catholic church that gave shelter to those being persecuted and killed by Pinochet after the Coup. I came out to a a young Priest who gave me advise and guidance, also an amazing Catholic Priest thought Science and Religion (no, not creationism) at Med School.  

                  There is a disconnect between the Curia and the nuns and priests on the "ground" and us Catholics who are hopeful of a Third Vatican Council to address all the anachronistic concepts of the Church.

                  But calling me and fellow Catholics "cattle", "ignorant", or "they don't know better" is at the very least insulting.

                  We all have had our journey and relationship with our faith. This will be good for the Church and us Catholics who want more of a saying and equality in our Church

                  #respect and #hope

                  •  You have got to admit (0+ / 0-)

                    being a gay Latino, the church has done you few favors. Starting with the Spanish inquistion and going on down to the conquistadors and then now to the push against gays.

                    God's will is certainly an interesting concept.

                    I didn't see where anybody called Catholics cattle or ignorant or maybe not even knowing better. We are just trying to figure out how to live together in THIS community.

                    American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

                    by glitterscale on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:26:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  as a gay Latino (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tobendaro

                      The US government has done me very few favors until recently, or many governments for that matter. It wasn't long ago that having sex with my partner was illegal in many States.

                      I did say "historical shameful acts", and I contrasted with other admirable actions.

                      I still stayed American instead of renouncing my citizenship to move to Canada or España.

                      I wasn't pointing fingers to any one person in particular, just to those who call us gay Catholics those names I mentioned.

                •  um, I don't think I suggested this: (0+ / 0-)
                  rounding up all bishops, priests and nuns and throwing them all in jail since they are all already tried and convicted of "evil"
                  as far as I know, it isn't against the law to be evil or to belong to an evil institution.  Do I believe that every one of them condones the abuses of the church when they remain silent ? yes, of course.  Believing that silence is better for the church institution than condemning the child rapists is at the heart of the continued cover-ups.

                  Do I believe that every one should be locked up without trial? of course not.  those who broke laws in the cover-ups do deserve to be tried and jailed.  those eho knew about the cover-ups but did nothing should loose any moral position and the right to call themselves "Christians".

                  As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

                  by BPARTR on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:08:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  This is why (5+ / 0-)
          I have a lot of trouble understanding why good people like you and some in my family continue to support these horrible people by attending their ceremonies and contributing money and time.
          The Catholic Church and Catholic organizations are doing a lot of good out there.  I'm not saying it's perfect, and not saying it couldn't be better.  But this should help you understand why "good people" aren't willing to so easily give up on the Church.

          Catholic Charities USA

          Since 1910, Catholic Charities USA (CCUSA) has served as a national advocate for the most vulnerable in our nation, guided by the basic belief in the inherent dignity of every human being.

          CCUSA’s Social Policy priorities are guided by the the moral responsibility of society to ensure that the dignity of human life is reflected in all aspects of public policy.  We advocate for policy initiatives that enable the strengthening of individuals and the reduction of poverty.

          It is our tradition and belief that our country, through its policies and federal budget, must demonstrate a priority for attending to the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable persons in society.

          Key Issue Areas

              Family Economic Security: All persons should have the opportunity to adequately provide for themselves and their families. The family is the indispensable and essential unit of our society, and policies must promote and strengthen the economic security of families.

              Health Care: Special attention must be paid to the basic health needs of the poor and marginalized. Health care reform, and addressing such needs, is a matter of fundamental justice.

              Housing: Catholic Charities agencies across the country have worked to develop safe, affordable housing for families at every level on the housing continuum from homeless shelters and affordable housing development, to home purchasing.

              Hunger: It is unacceptable in a nation as bountiful as ours that children, adults, and senior citizens experience food insecurity that puts their physical, mental and developmental health at risk.

              Special Populations: In the advocacy work of CCUSA, particular focus is given to the needs of special populations, including but not limited to the elderly, the disabled, those living within our justice system, rural and urban populations, immigrants and refugees, and the victims of injustices perpetrated by others.

              Workforce Development: CCUSA believes education and skills training are essential to the long term success of our nation’s youth and adults. It is a fundamental part of creating a competitive workforce and a strong economy that benefits all. Education is not only necessary for economic advancement, but it also has wide ranging social benefits that promote the common good.

          Also Catholic Relief Services
          (small example of what they do)
          Mother and Child Health Counts

          Deaths during childbirth in the developing world are tragically common. People in poor, rural communities—far away from the nearest health center—often lack prenatal services and access to health education. Getting husbands involved in maternal health is key to a healthy mother and baby, and is a central aim in CRS' Child Survival programs.

          Thanks to a CRS program in Nicaragua, the number of women delivering their babies in hospitals, rather than at home, has increased 60 percent in the CRS project area since 2008. And the number of prenatal visits increased from 40 percent to more than 70 percent in some of the most remote communities. The couples go for prenatal care together and jointly make decisions about the pregnancy and delivery. They make arrangements to stay at a maternity house for the birth of the child and learn how to care for the baby together.

          CRS also plans to use inexpensive mobile phones to help families go to appointments, share information and receive better care.

          Then there's St. Vincent De Paul
             
          Services We Provide

              Food programs
              Emergency financial assistance
              Emergency transportation
              Disaster relief and victim services
              Rent/mortgage assistance
              Low-cost housing
              Shelters for the homeless
              Shelters for the abused
              Assistance for victims of AIDS, substance abuse, and crime
              Thrift Stores
              Free pharmacy services
              Employment services
              Job training
              Counseling/Information
              Referral service
              Education programs (GED)
              Homemaker services
              Budget counseling
              Nutritional education
              Youth programs
              Camp programs
              Social justice programs
              Advocacy
              Twinning, foreign and domestic
              Prison Ministry
              Halfway houses for ex-offenders
              Burial of the indigent
              Embracing the lonely, forgotten, and alienated
              Service to anyone in need

          I'm not saying all this good this excuses or justifies any bad behavior in the Church Hierarchy.  But it should help you understand how "good people" can still call themselves Catholic.

          Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

          by Dustin Mineau on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:24:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let's add about 1000 colleges and universities. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dustin Mineau

            We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

            by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:17:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yet you can't support that monetarily without (0+ / 0-)

            also supporting all of the evil stuff in the Church Hierarchy.  After all, how can you be sure your money is going to the good works instead of being used as hush money?

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:05:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's a problem with all private charities (0+ / 0-)

              That's not a problem unique to any Church.  Any private charity can squander money.  You can never guarantee anything in life.  If I had that standard there would be few organizations I would give money too.  That includes the democratic party and U.S. government.

              In addition, you might not be familiar with church finances.  There are "general donations" as well as "targeted donations" that go directly to an organization.

              Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

              by Dustin Mineau on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:31:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You don't have to believe ALL the stuff... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JSW from WA, Tom Anderson, tobendaro
          I left the church because I realized I didn't believe all the stuff they were telling me.
          Probably rather few folks believe all the stuff their religions tell them.  That doesn't mean there isn't wisdom and comfort those folks can draw from what they do believe.  But when the things you don't believe get most of the emphasis, and those things aren't just something that makes you think, "Oh, that's a nice thought but it's probably wishful thinking," but they're thoughts that really grate on you, it's time to look for a new religion or a new belief system.

          We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

          by david78209 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:28:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Catholics I know (0+ / 0-)

            come from family traditions of being Catholic. Being Catholic equates with being part of the family lineage. The problems with the church hiarchy are embarrassing and unsettling to them--yet they show up at mass every sunday because they've been well and truely indoctrinated that they must follow the rituals, or else.  So--they compartmentalize in their minds. The parish they belong to has a nice congregation, good works, good schooling, well-loved priests...and that's what matters.  The rest is simply not thought about.  What happens in Rome is not a welcome topic of conversation. Period. I only know a few Catholics, and they are indeed good and reasonable people who simply refuse to dwell on the bigger picture.  Come to think of it--that seems to be the case with nearly every religious person I know. All religious indoctrination teaches that questioning the 'traditions'  and teachings is unacceptable or even evil...so people compartmentalize. It's easier to put that stuff in the "Don't Think About It" box.  It's human--it's what we all do in one way or another.

        •  I search and (3+ / 0-)

          since I am steeped in this tradition I search through this religion.  Mostly I tell priests and anyone else that the Church doesn't get to own my soul, tell me how or what to do and they don't get to make my decisions.  They should be there to guide and support not run anyone's life.  We are free which they seem to forget.  Their examples render them unable to lead.  They are not  the Church, we are.  They cannot ruin us, they can only ruin their hierarchy and themselves.  My contributions are not monetary.  Untill I see responsible and humble use of the monies I will not give a dime.  I support my small parish with my labor and talents. We will find our own way and I will search till I am satisfied.  I like to be with the Sacred, wherever and whatever it is.  That is my search.  This latest tantrum is the tail end of any political power a church has in the western world.  The days of their influence are over.  If they want to participate in our democracy they are going to have to follow the rules and laws.  

          Everyone! Arms akimbo!

          by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:46:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Primacy of conscience (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catkin, tobendaro

            is a well established Catholic principle:

            Catholic Catechism

            1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

            We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

            by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:28:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  funny that they don't allow (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tobendaro

              people to act according to their conscience when it comes to women's health and birth control.

              “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

              by skohayes on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:32:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'd also claim they have no credibilty... (0+ / 0-)

        ...because they claim to derive their authority from non-existent deities, but that's neither here nor there.

    •  The way to do that (0+ / 0-)

      ...is to surrender Ratzinger for trial.  Ain't gonna happen.  In fact, part of this is probably to hide him from subpoenas/summons.

      America, we can do better than this...

      by Randomfactor on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:04:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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