Skip to main content

View Diary: Pope Benedict is stepping down (132 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I am a recovering Catholic (6+ / 0-)

    The last time I went to Mass it was still in Latin. I left the church because I realized I didn't believe all the stuff they were telling me. My realization of the bigotry and corruption in the church came later (although I was quite aware of the misogyny).  

    I have a lot of trouble understanding why good people like you and some in my family continue to support these horrible people by attending their ceremonies and contributing money and time. Why is there no movement to break off from these relics of the 16th Century?

    You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

    by yellowdog on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 06:47:33 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I am not Catholic so I don't know the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heianshoka, Tom Anderson

      answer, but I did ask one once. I think that for some it is the "family" feeling and it is a place they "belong". (I put that in quotes because obviously people have no real rights in that institution. And I think the rites being so set comfort those who are afraid of changes. And of course, the church has spent a fortune creating architecture and nomenclature to awe a semi literate audience. (I am speaking of earlier times.) And they used that to drill into people's heads the tenets of the "faith", making sure to get the little ones early.

      I would be much happier with that church if it allowed its nuns to have a seat at the table of power.

      American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

      by glitterscale on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:10:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's also community, (3+ / 0-)

        no different than why people support this place despite the warts -- it's a group that comes together to support one another in crisis. That applies to pretty much any church -- I know that our Episcopal parish did a lot to help after my father-in-law died.

        There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by Cali Scribe on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:27:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  whoa! There is a big difference (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Back In Blue

          between a community (KOS) where people disagree and or are rude to each other ( that's a community with warts) and the RCC which is evil and corrupt and actively supports child rape (that is a malignant cancer.)

          DON'T CREATE FALSE EQUIVALANCY!

          As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

          by BPARTR on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:54:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Evil through and through, eh? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            El Mito, tobendaro

            I suppose you'd support preemptively rounding up all bishops, priests and nuns and throwing them all in jail since they are all already tried and convicted of "evil" in your eyes?

            Yes this is ridiculous hyperbole as was your original statement.

            We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

            by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:00:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  As a Gay Latin Catholic (4+ / 0-)

              I really shutter when people malign every member of an institution because of historical shameful acts. We forget those priests and nuns who are there on the ground doing God's work. When I lived in Chile, it was the Catholic church that gave shelter to those being persecuted and killed by Pinochet after the Coup. I came out to a a young Priest who gave me advise and guidance, also an amazing Catholic Priest thought Science and Religion (no, not creationism) at Med School.  

              There is a disconnect between the Curia and the nuns and priests on the "ground" and us Catholics who are hopeful of a Third Vatican Council to address all the anachronistic concepts of the Church.

              But calling me and fellow Catholics "cattle", "ignorant", or "they don't know better" is at the very least insulting.

              We all have had our journey and relationship with our faith. This will be good for the Church and us Catholics who want more of a saying and equality in our Church

              #respect and #hope

              •  You have got to admit (0+ / 0-)

                being a gay Latino, the church has done you few favors. Starting with the Spanish inquistion and going on down to the conquistadors and then now to the push against gays.

                God's will is certainly an interesting concept.

                I didn't see where anybody called Catholics cattle or ignorant or maybe not even knowing better. We are just trying to figure out how to live together in THIS community.

                American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

                by glitterscale on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:26:08 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  as a gay Latino (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tobendaro

                  The US government has done me very few favors until recently, or many governments for that matter. It wasn't long ago that having sex with my partner was illegal in many States.

                  I did say "historical shameful acts", and I contrasted with other admirable actions.

                  I still stayed American instead of renouncing my citizenship to move to Canada or España.

                  I wasn't pointing fingers to any one person in particular, just to those who call us gay Catholics those names I mentioned.

            •  um, I don't think I suggested this: (0+ / 0-)
              rounding up all bishops, priests and nuns and throwing them all in jail since they are all already tried and convicted of "evil"
              as far as I know, it isn't against the law to be evil or to belong to an evil institution.  Do I believe that every one of them condones the abuses of the church when they remain silent ? yes, of course.  Believing that silence is better for the church institution than condemning the child rapists is at the heart of the continued cover-ups.

              Do I believe that every one should be locked up without trial? of course not.  those who broke laws in the cover-ups do deserve to be tried and jailed.  those eho knew about the cover-ups but did nothing should loose any moral position and the right to call themselves "Christians".

              As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

              by BPARTR on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:08:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  This is why (5+ / 0-)
      I have a lot of trouble understanding why good people like you and some in my family continue to support these horrible people by attending their ceremonies and contributing money and time.
      The Catholic Church and Catholic organizations are doing a lot of good out there.  I'm not saying it's perfect, and not saying it couldn't be better.  But this should help you understand why "good people" aren't willing to so easily give up on the Church.

      Catholic Charities USA

      Since 1910, Catholic Charities USA (CCUSA) has served as a national advocate for the most vulnerable in our nation, guided by the basic belief in the inherent dignity of every human being.

      CCUSA’s Social Policy priorities are guided by the the moral responsibility of society to ensure that the dignity of human life is reflected in all aspects of public policy.  We advocate for policy initiatives that enable the strengthening of individuals and the reduction of poverty.

      It is our tradition and belief that our country, through its policies and federal budget, must demonstrate a priority for attending to the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable persons in society.

      Key Issue Areas

          Family Economic Security: All persons should have the opportunity to adequately provide for themselves and their families. The family is the indispensable and essential unit of our society, and policies must promote and strengthen the economic security of families.

          Health Care: Special attention must be paid to the basic health needs of the poor and marginalized. Health care reform, and addressing such needs, is a matter of fundamental justice.

          Housing: Catholic Charities agencies across the country have worked to develop safe, affordable housing for families at every level on the housing continuum from homeless shelters and affordable housing development, to home purchasing.

          Hunger: It is unacceptable in a nation as bountiful as ours that children, adults, and senior citizens experience food insecurity that puts their physical, mental and developmental health at risk.

          Special Populations: In the advocacy work of CCUSA, particular focus is given to the needs of special populations, including but not limited to the elderly, the disabled, those living within our justice system, rural and urban populations, immigrants and refugees, and the victims of injustices perpetrated by others.

          Workforce Development: CCUSA believes education and skills training are essential to the long term success of our nation’s youth and adults. It is a fundamental part of creating a competitive workforce and a strong economy that benefits all. Education is not only necessary for economic advancement, but it also has wide ranging social benefits that promote the common good.

      Also Catholic Relief Services
      (small example of what they do)
      Mother and Child Health Counts

      Deaths during childbirth in the developing world are tragically common. People in poor, rural communities—far away from the nearest health center—often lack prenatal services and access to health education. Getting husbands involved in maternal health is key to a healthy mother and baby, and is a central aim in CRS' Child Survival programs.

      Thanks to a CRS program in Nicaragua, the number of women delivering their babies in hospitals, rather than at home, has increased 60 percent in the CRS project area since 2008. And the number of prenatal visits increased from 40 percent to more than 70 percent in some of the most remote communities. The couples go for prenatal care together and jointly make decisions about the pregnancy and delivery. They make arrangements to stay at a maternity house for the birth of the child and learn how to care for the baby together.

      CRS also plans to use inexpensive mobile phones to help families go to appointments, share information and receive better care.

      Then there's St. Vincent De Paul
         
      Services We Provide

          Food programs
          Emergency financial assistance
          Emergency transportation
          Disaster relief and victim services
          Rent/mortgage assistance
          Low-cost housing
          Shelters for the homeless
          Shelters for the abused
          Assistance for victims of AIDS, substance abuse, and crime
          Thrift Stores
          Free pharmacy services
          Employment services
          Job training
          Counseling/Information
          Referral service
          Education programs (GED)
          Homemaker services
          Budget counseling
          Nutritional education
          Youth programs
          Camp programs
          Social justice programs
          Advocacy
          Twinning, foreign and domestic
          Prison Ministry
          Halfway houses for ex-offenders
          Burial of the indigent
          Embracing the lonely, forgotten, and alienated
          Service to anyone in need

      I'm not saying all this good this excuses or justifies any bad behavior in the Church Hierarchy.  But it should help you understand how "good people" can still call themselves Catholic.

      Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

      by Dustin Mineau on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:24:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let's add about 1000 colleges and universities. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dustin Mineau

        We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

        by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:17:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yet you can't support that monetarily without (0+ / 0-)

        also supporting all of the evil stuff in the Church Hierarchy.  After all, how can you be sure your money is going to the good works instead of being used as hush money?

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:05:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a problem with all private charities (0+ / 0-)

          That's not a problem unique to any Church.  Any private charity can squander money.  You can never guarantee anything in life.  If I had that standard there would be few organizations I would give money too.  That includes the democratic party and U.S. government.

          In addition, you might not be familiar with church finances.  There are "general donations" as well as "targeted donations" that go directly to an organization.

          Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

          by Dustin Mineau on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:31:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You don't have to believe ALL the stuff... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JSW from WA, Tom Anderson, tobendaro
      I left the church because I realized I didn't believe all the stuff they were telling me.
      Probably rather few folks believe all the stuff their religions tell them.  That doesn't mean there isn't wisdom and comfort those folks can draw from what they do believe.  But when the things you don't believe get most of the emphasis, and those things aren't just something that makes you think, "Oh, that's a nice thought but it's probably wishful thinking," but they're thoughts that really grate on you, it's time to look for a new religion or a new belief system.

      We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

      by david78209 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:28:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Catholics I know (0+ / 0-)

        come from family traditions of being Catholic. Being Catholic equates with being part of the family lineage. The problems with the church hiarchy are embarrassing and unsettling to them--yet they show up at mass every sunday because they've been well and truely indoctrinated that they must follow the rituals, or else.  So--they compartmentalize in their minds. The parish they belong to has a nice congregation, good works, good schooling, well-loved priests...and that's what matters.  The rest is simply not thought about.  What happens in Rome is not a welcome topic of conversation. Period. I only know a few Catholics, and they are indeed good and reasonable people who simply refuse to dwell on the bigger picture.  Come to think of it--that seems to be the case with nearly every religious person I know. All religious indoctrination teaches that questioning the 'traditions'  and teachings is unacceptable or even evil...so people compartmentalize. It's easier to put that stuff in the "Don't Think About It" box.  It's human--it's what we all do in one way or another.

    •  I search and (3+ / 0-)

      since I am steeped in this tradition I search through this religion.  Mostly I tell priests and anyone else that the Church doesn't get to own my soul, tell me how or what to do and they don't get to make my decisions.  They should be there to guide and support not run anyone's life.  We are free which they seem to forget.  Their examples render them unable to lead.  They are not  the Church, we are.  They cannot ruin us, they can only ruin their hierarchy and themselves.  My contributions are not monetary.  Untill I see responsible and humble use of the monies I will not give a dime.  I support my small parish with my labor and talents. We will find our own way and I will search till I am satisfied.  I like to be with the Sacred, wherever and whatever it is.  That is my search.  This latest tantrum is the tail end of any political power a church has in the western world.  The days of their influence are over.  If they want to participate in our democracy they are going to have to follow the rules and laws.  

      Everyone! Arms akimbo!

      by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:46:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Primacy of conscience (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catkin, tobendaro

        is a well established Catholic principle:

        Catholic Catechism

        1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

        We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

        by bmcphail on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 09:28:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  funny that they don't allow (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tobendaro

          people to act according to their conscience when it comes to women's health and birth control.

          “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

          by skohayes on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:32:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They have no way of not allowing it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes

            They just want to bullly people into action or non action.  That bullying is the crux of their incredulity.  It in no way resembles what the Church is supposed to be.

            Everyone! Arms akimbo!

            by tobendaro on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:01:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site