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View Diary: On the Lethal Use of Drones (112 comments)

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  •  Was I the only one to notice in Brennan's hearing (20+ / 0-)

    that he equated Due Process with an unnamed person with authority deciding who gets smoked?  I've been waiting for an article about it.  It was dumbfounding.

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

    by nailbender on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:02:24 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  get comfy here: (7+ / 0-)

      marcy is the Queen of Weediness-Exploring.

      lots of breath-taking posts.

      There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:12:51 PM PST

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    •  The reasoning is no better than Cheney, Addington, (19+ / 0-)

      and Yoo (et AL) conjured up in their blatant and deliberate efforts to subvert the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. And it's particularly despicable and disheartening coming from a Democratic president with a Constitutional law background.

      My greatest fear now is that the push-back they are getting on this will actually make things worse, by causing them to turn what was a secret embarrassment into an institutionalized farce, along the lines of the FISA Courts -- and thus giving an official, normalized gloss to these gross violations of the rule of law.

      "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

      by Kombema on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:17:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They still call them courts? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kombema, JesseCW, truong son traveler

        I thought they'd adopted a new agency moniker:

        "Approval Mill"

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 08:44:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  actually torture clearly and utterly broke (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster

        US law and the Geneva conventions, the best argument for drones breaking IL is iffy and currently Obama is following US law as passed.

        •  Drones break IL, too, given their use against (0+ / 0-)

          unarmed civilians in non-war zones. Geneva's Common Article III calls for due process akin to national norms, and killing someone like that is definitely a violation of due process.

          And as for American "law," I'm not talking about what Congress passes: I'm talking about what's Constitutional. The law and its VERY loose interpretation by the Obama administration are both un-Constitutional. But without a willingness of any of the three branches of gov't to check this power, it will continue regardless.

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 08:22:47 AM PST

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          •  yeah I'm sure AQ is all types of unarmed (0+ / 0-)

            and misunderstood

            Seriously? that's the best you got?

            And I'm sorry but 'due process' is utterly unreasonable in a war.

            You also want to argue the AUMF is unconsitutional? Wrong again

            •  You make the classic logical error for advocates (0+ / 0-)

              of drone strikes, extrajudicial execution, torture, and other violations of IL and American law: You assume that anyone the government designates as "AQ" actually IS AQ, and that they are active combatants who are a direct and imminent threat to the United States.

              Problem is, without arrest, or a proper due process legal defense and trial -- or any other proof, all we have to go on is the White House's word that their secret information is good as gold. And in my reading of history, that is absolutely not nearly enough to go on, even if we DON'T assume they're lying about it. The majority of those detained as enemy combatants, or tortured and murdered in U.S. custody, were shown on closer examination to not be AQ or any other terrorist or "affiliated" status.

              The Founders were wise to try to keep such powers out of the hands of our leaders. Time and again it has been demonstrated that innocent people suffer when such absolute power is assumed.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 09:42:13 AM PST

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              •  and you just made a strawman (0+ / 0-)

                You know this bares repeating so I'll say it again

                If AQ is willing to surrender themselves to the Hague I'm more then willing to endless advocate for them to have a fair trial. Till then this is a war

                I'm tired of the appeal to tradition too. The founders lived in such a radically different time that much of what they thought no longer applies.  And yeah I'm sure to you that's sacrilege but the founders also never intended the consitution to be sacred.

                •  No, it's not a war, but NTL, it will never end. (0+ / 0-)

                  Living in a mind-set of perpetual war leads us to become an Orwellian nightmare, justifying police powers forever. Al Qaeda is just not that dangerous that it's worth flushing the democracy down the toilet.

                  "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                  by Kombema on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 11:39:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then we have reached a fundamental disagreement (0+ / 0-)

                    because this is a war and I support President Obama's attempts to prevent AQ from ever having the breathing space to launch another terrorist attack on US soil or else where. If drones make that safer, more selective and better then drones it is.

                    Frankly the last time people said 'Al Qaeda is just not that dangerous' we got 9.11 so really I can not quite enunciate my disgust that someone would ever say that again.

                    You talk a lot about 'flushing the democracy down the toilet' and yet we still live in the same nation as we did 10 years ago largely. Technology has advanced and forced some changes; yes some of those are troubling but then any change is troubling. Society had to deal with the same changes any time we have a watershed moment in history.

                     

      •  Yes they are fully capable of doing that, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kombema

        and they've had a lot of practice at it. An acquired skill.

      •  plizhiAbsolutely not. Cheney Addington wanted ccom (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster

        full scale shock and awe wars. Haliburton for example cannot make billions from what drones are accomplishing.

        "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

        by zenox on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 04:13:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry for the typos. Posted from my phone. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kombema

          "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

          by zenox on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 05:35:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I'd dispute that they can't make $$$ (0+ / 0-)

          The global and domestic U.S. drone market will be very robust if they have anything to do with it, and Halliburton and their ilk will have that and many other related ways to push the security state concept further on us and every terrorism-paranoid nation with cash.

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 12:47:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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