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View Diary: I'm from Newtown. We deserve a vote (415 comments)

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  •  If you, or anyone else wants to know something (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hangpilot, theboz

    about my business, my legal business, you ask me directly.  You don't go around asking a 3 year old who lacks the wisdom to know what is off limits and what is not questions behind my back.  Quite frankly until such time as pediatricians become trained and qualified to discuss guns and gun safety they can keep their yaps shut, not to mention the whole issue of probing into areas that are not their concern.  

    •  OK, I'll ask (12+ / 0-)

      Got small children at home?  Got a gun?

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 06:51:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

        •  Well then it's not your kids at risk (11+ / 0-)

          I suggest that perhaps what pediatricians ask their patients is none of your business.

          If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

          by marykk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:16:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey if you want some goon asking your kids (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hangpilot

            questions behind your back, more power to you.  That is none of my business.  However, it is my business, when they try to do it to my kids and knowing that idiots are pushing them to do so means that I would never give them the chance and God help them if they ever tried.

            •  And the fact that you would categorize (17+ / 0-)

              pediatricians as "goons"  and public health professionals as "idiots" says all I need to know about you.  May I strongly encourage you NEVER to procreate.

              If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

              by marykk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:26:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wait, aren't you in favor of making gun education (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk, a2nite, lyvwyr101, vcmvo2

              ... part of the classroom experience?

              •  In reality, I think that this could be beneficial (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                high uintas, DavidMS, Kickemout, Hangpilot

                Handled properly and safely, education might be a good thing.  Amongst other things it would help to:
                1) take the mystery out of guns.  Nothing is more enticing than something that is taboo.
                2) educate kids on how to respond in an unsafe situation.  For example, if they are at a friends house and the friend shows them their parents gun.  The rule that they should follow is, "stop. don't touch. get an adult".  

                How many parents, especially those who don't have guns in the home would even think to teach number 2 and number 1 could help to ensure that they understand the purpose behind number 2 as well as resist the mystery temptation.

                •  Right, so you don't think pediatricians should... (11+ / 0-)

                  ... talk to kids about guns, but you'd favor a giant, smiling eagle talking to kids a bout guns.

                  "Look kids! Guns are dangerous! But look at my big, smiling eagle head! Guns are fun!"

                  •  If the pediatrician is qualified, then yes (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    noway2

                    Most are not and don't have the time or knowledge to teach a firearms safety class.  It also out of scope.  Should a pediatrician mention that there are good cheap safes and gun locks?  Yes.  Provide a brochure on it?  Yes.  Mention that a cable lock that goes through the action can be had for less than $10 and a decent RSC can be had for >$200? Yes.

                    But provide specific gun safety training?  No, not unless like Kyle they have a instructor's certification.  They don't have the qualifications for it.  

                    I am an IT professional.  I can tell you the basics on securing a network or removing malware from a computer.  Even set up AD authentication and secure file shares.  Design and implement an Oracle database?  It would be malpractice.  

                    Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism the roles are reversed.

                    by DavidMS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:09:04 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  um.... (6+ / 0-)
                      Should a pediatrician mention that there are good cheap safes and gun locks?  Yes.  Provide a brochure on it?  Yes.  Mention that a cable lock that goes through the action can be had for less than $10 and a decent RSC can be had for >$200? Yes.
                      That's the point and the practice, not anything else.

                      Gun locks, by the way, are often available for free at your local police station. just ask and see if it's the case where you live. it is where I live.

                      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:18:00 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Gun locks. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        noway2, Otteray Scribe

                        I have two.  One came with the pistol when I bought it and the other was given to me.  

                        I think we are then on the same page.  

                        Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism the roles are reversed.

                        by DavidMS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:28:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i think so (6+ / 0-)

                          it was not the intent to imply pediatricians = gun instructors. We want to ask about their presence and supply a brochure on locks and safes. And ask if removing them from the home is viable (for many, answer is no). if not, lock 'em where children are concerned.

                          if i have parents of kids with asthma who smoke, i ask them to stop. if not, i ask them to try and smoke outside. No one made a law to prevent me, but maybe in FL they would.... I have had plenty of parents who told me they couldn't stop or that they'd try but never  "it's none of your business trying to treat my kid when I brought them to you to treat".

                          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:33:53 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with that, Greg. (11+ / 0-)

                            However, there are far too many household risk factors for a physician to go down the whole list during an office visit.  As we both know, there are many more risk factors around the typical household than just firearms.  The CDC says the leading cause of death for children of all ages are accidents.  When I am consulted by an attorney on a child custody case, I do ask about firearms.  Actually, I have a list of high risk items I go over with the parents involved, and sometimes it takes me a full hour or more just to explore the list.  A sampling:

                            Do you have a motorcycle and does the child ride with you.  (If yes, ask about leathers and helmet)

                            Does the child skateboard.  (If yes, ask about pads and helmet).

                            There is a whole list.  Boats or other watercraft.  Airplanes.  Convertible cars, seat belts, child car seats, child proof cabinet locks where chemicals might be kept.  Medications out of reach. Stair gates. Fenced yard.  Dogs or other pets that might bite. Horses.  Yard and garden tools and chemical in a locked shed or barn.  Sharp tools or power tools and how are they secured.  My list goes on for several typewritten pages.

                            Guns are just one blip on that radar.  There is no particular reason to single out firearms, when stuff under the kitchen sink may actually present more hazard, according to epidemiological data.  My son is an ER physician.  He was really upset the other evening.  Somebody had mixed up the baby's medicine with another family member's antipsychotic meds.  Giving a toddler an adult dose of Chlorpromazine is not good for an ER doc's blood pressure. I have not heard him that angry in a long time.

                            My recommendation is that every family practitioner and pediatrician ought to have brochures in the waiting room covering these items, including firearm security.  Many waiting rooms now have televisions with non-stop medical information and news.  It would be easy enough to incorporate that information in the public service announcements.

                            The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                            by Otteray Scribe on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:31:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes I posted elsewhere on this page (5+ / 0-)
                            Not all docs are happy about this battle, and some want the right but not the obligation to ask (adding 10 minutes for every patient adds up over the week and obligation implies penalty if you don't ask). And want to be paid for their time (there's no code for gun counseling, there's no procedure to bill for and 2500 extra minutes a week every week of unbilled time is daunting).
                            But docs also do not want to be told "you cannot ask".

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:37:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Asking is one thing. Going around the parents by (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hangpilot, PavePusher

                            asking the children is another.  The parents have every right to tell you none of your business too.  A child won't understand that.

                          •  where did you ever get the idea (7+ / 0-)

                            it was going around the parents? where? document please.

                            The case in Florida I posted and detailed was no such thing nor was there ever a suggestion otherwise.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:49:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I said in another post (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bob Johnson, Hangpilot, PavePusher
                            The American Academy of Pediatricians supports asking children if there are guns in their homes.
                            Asking CHILDREN, not the parents.  Children should not be the ones with the guns.  The parents also have every right to tell you none of your business.  The child doesn't understand this.
                          •  Edit the above (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher

                            I wasn't the quote who made the statement it quotes.  That was from another comment.

                          •  I found it (0+ / 0-)

                            the comment is wrong.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 01:03:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then I appologize for jumping to the wrong (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Greg Dworkin, PavePusher

                            conclusion.  The implications inherent in comments like that sew a lot of seeds of distrust that is not easily gotten past.

                          •  I agree with that. (5+ / 0-)

                            It annoys hell out of me when our licensing board tells me what kind of sign I "must" have on my office door.  I usually just ignore that kind of thing and do what I do anyway.  If I suspect a risk factor, I ask about it.  I like nothing better than a good fight.  Screw 'em.  

                            The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                            by Otteray Scribe on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:43:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ;-) n/t (4+ / 0-)

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:50:28 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That is not what was being discussed or suggested (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hangpilot

                            What was being said is that pediatricians should be subverting the parents by asking the children about guns in the home.  The obvious implication is that they think the parents will simply say no and they will get "the truth" from the mouths of babes.

                          •  My pont was that there are literally (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            OMwordTHRUdaFOG, 43north, PavePusher

                            too many risk items to address in a normal office visit. I believe Dr. Dworkin pointed out that going into those issues would cut into time seeing patients who are sick.  That is why the kid is in the office in the first place.  

                            Guns are not the highest risk factor in the typical household.  It is chemicals and medications, as well as falls and auto safety.  I am much more interested in the issue of whether daddy or mommy drinks alcohol and if they do, do they ever take you out in the car.  Grilling a kid on that would really light the fuse to the dynamite.

                            The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                            by Otteray Scribe on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:51:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry I missed that (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north, noway2, marykk
                            pediatricians should be subverting the parents by asking the children about guns in the home.
                            I get that would annoy you or anyone but where was that said?

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:00:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This comment was the basis of it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher

                            comment link here

                            Like I said, if you want to talk about something be above board with it.  I keep getting the impression this Pediatric Society wants it done in an underhanded manner as this is not the first time I have heard about this.  Usually the discussions come up because someone did just this.

                            While you may view it is looking out for peoples well being, I see it as I am paying your for a service, not to play societies' protector and that there are boundaries to our service contract.  It is much like the gun rights debate in general as it is about personal liberty in general.

                          •  oh, please (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Otteray Scribe

                            1. I've posted the official policy.. it's counseling parents, not talking to children without the parent.

                            2. I've get that you've legitimately seen it written otherwise, and are not making it up but what you have seen is wrong. That's verified by looking at the actual policy.

                            3. Pediatricians are obligated in most states to report things you'd possibly object to, such as suspicion of child abuse. It is the way it has to be, and you don't have to like it. We are society's protector when it comes to kids.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 01:07:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  What is the fear here? (6+ / 0-)

                      That, somehow, pediatricians are spies for the government or something?

                      I'm trying to understand how a pediatrician asking if there are guns in a home and, if so, if those guns are secured, is somehow a bad thing.

                      •  Its not fear (7+ / 0-)

                        Its stepping out of your bubble and learning to meet people where they are.  

                        There is a big difference  between "if you happen to own a gun, here is how to secure it and teach your kids the 4 safety rules" and "Do you own a gun?"

                        Most gun owners don't broadcast it.  Both because there are plenty people who might resolve into hysterics or get a case of the stupids (I have seen it).  I tell people I like target shooting and leave it at that.  

                        Your doctor may ask if you are sexually active and suggest you take proper precautions against STIs and unwanted pregnancy.  They won't flip you a pamphlet on the proper way to have wild, kinky sex.  You want to look up an expert like Jay Wiseman as your GP probably won't have good advise on some of the activities and practices you will be engaged in.  

                        Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism the roles are reversed.

                        by DavidMS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:37:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Got it. (7+ / 0-)

                          I ran some numbers yesterday.

                          According to the Census Bureau, there are 114,761,359 households in the U.S.

                          The number of guns in the U.S., according to reports, is 310,000,000

                          So if 35% of U.S. households have a gun in them, according to surveys, that means that 310,000,000 guns are in 40,166,476 households.

                          That means that the average gun-owning household owns 7.72 guns.

                          Let's assume that a large number of households with guns have one gun or perhaps two, whether someone in the household purchased the gun or inherited it. (That's an assumption.)

                          That means that a large number of weapons are concentrated in relatively few hands in this country.

                          I also found this from the National Institutes of Health:

                          One-third of all families in America that have children also have guns, and more than 40 percent of them don't keep their guns locked up. Children younger than eight can't tell the difference between a real gun and a toy, and 3-year-olds are strong enough to pull the trigger on a real gun. Children and teens commit more than half of all unintentional shootings.
                          So maybe asking the question of whether or not the child has seen a gun in the home is valuable, given the fact that 40% of gun-owning families with kids don't lock up their guns.

                          Just making the argument.

                          •  Its how you ask. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, PavePusher

                            Its not if you ask the question its how you ask the question.  

                            There is a big difference between Borat with his marriage sack and asking your girlfriend of 18 months to marry you on one knee.  

                            Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism the roles are reversed.

                            by DavidMS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:11:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sure. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            a2nite, marykk

                            But, for example, what about asking a child if s/he has ever seen a gun in a friend's home?

                            Given that a third of homes with children have guns and that 40% of those homes don't have the guns secured, is that a fair question for a pediatrician to ask, and wouldn't the parents of this child want to know such information?

                          •  You are moving the goal posts (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, PavePusher

                            NT

                            Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism the roles are reversed.

                            by DavidMS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:37:44 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I'm asking a question. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            a2nite

                            What would you think about a pediatrician asking the question I posed, above?

                          •  If the parent of the child wishes to know these (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher

                            things, can't they ask their neighbors?

                            Do pediatricians ask children how many times they've seen Mommy & Daddy having sex? Or if Daddy touched them?

                            Our group debated this topic well over a year ago.

                            What is the role of "doctor" in our society today?  Agent of the State.  Legally obligated in many places to report to the police any "suspicious" activity leading them to believe the child's life is in danger.

                            Get an overzealous anti-gun doctor and school nurse and this happens:

                            Father arrested, strip-searched after 4-year-old draws ‘man with gun’

                            This IS a problem.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 06:39:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  actually (0+ / 0-)
                            Child Abuse in America

                            Children are suffering from a hidden epidemic of child abuse and neglect. Every year 3.3 million reports of child abuse are made in the United States involving nearly 6 million children (a report can include multiple children). The United States has the worst record in the industrialized nation – losing five children every day due to abuse-related deaths. 1

                            http://www.childhelp.org/...

                            That's the bigger picture.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:14:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Greg, thank you, I've used the exact same (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Greg Dworkin

                            statistics in my most recent diary. Most of those 5 children a day are already in the care of the State.  

                            The bigger picture, most Americans don't want to know what I experienced at the hands of CPS.

                            The Murder of Nancy Schaefer & CPS

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:31:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Now you implying things that I didn't say, nt (0+ / 0-)
                •  That is pretty much how it is handled (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  orlbucfan, noway2, Joy of Fishes

                  here. Kids grow up around guns, family hunting trips that go from babe in arms to grandma are common. Gun safety starts early. Sadly, that does not weed out the idiots who don't do that and sometimes...well you all know. But, among the people who have a tradition with guns teaching gun safety starts very early.

                  "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                  by high uintas on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:33:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  "Take the mystery out of guns" ?! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  marykk, Laconic Lib

                  What mystery? Guns are EVERY where in our culture and have been forever.  Even an old fart like me had probably seen a couple of thousand people shot dead on TV by the time I was 10. Westerns were the TV fad of the day and I grew up with a
                  bunch of little boys with holsters and toy guns slung around their hips.  

                  Now of course, it's only more graphic and then there's the video games...we live in a gun infused society and there's no mystery about what guns can do.

                  "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

                  by StellaRay on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:37:33 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You know what I mean (0+ / 0-)

                    TV and video games aren't the same.   Finding something in mom or dad's closet or dresser drawers.  It is hidden.  It is forbidden. They know they are not supposed to be there, they are not supposed to touch it, they are not supposed to play with it.  This makes it enticing.  They know what it is and know they shouldn't play with it.  

                    How many stories do you read that go along the lines of: "they were playing with a gun in the closet when it went off (new speak for they pulled the trigger)"?  

            •  You write/sound like an idiot. I'm also (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk, lyvwyr101

              no as have no kids, yes as have a gun in my house. My old man is registered in the wild, wild west aka Florida. His piece is unloaded and hidden.

              Some people make u want to change species! --ulookarmless, quoted w/his permission: RIP good man.

              by orlbucfan on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:53:52 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Doctors are goons asking kids questions, WTF so (11+ / 0-)

              I supposed guidance counselors and social workers are also goons as they ask kids questions all of the time too..and some teachers as well.

              Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

              by wishingwell on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:02:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Some 'goon'? (8+ / 0-)

              If I hadn't just replied to one of your comments, I'd HR that RW talking point.

    •  got kids in the home? (16+ / 0-)

      it's our concern.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 07:05:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You think it is your concern (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theboz

        Fixed that for ya.

        •  the courts say it is (12+ / 0-)

          fixed that for ya.

          Following has been previously posted:

          follow-up on physician duties from yesterday's show (a doc discharged a patient because the patient refused to discuss guns and gun safety in FL):

          In recent months, there has been media attention surrounding an incident in Ocala, Florida, where, during a routine doctor’s visit, a pediatrician asked a patient’s mother whether there were firearms in the home.  When the mother refused to answer, the doctor advised her that she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician.

          The doctor stated that he asked all of his patients the same question in an effort to provide safety advice in the event there was a firearm in the home.

          He further stated that he asked similar questions about whether there was a pool at the home, and whether teenage drivers use their cell phone while driving for similar reasons – to give safety advice to patients.  The mother, however, felt that the question invaded her privacy.

          This incident has led many to question whether it should be an accepted practice for a doctor to inquire about a patient’s firearm ownership.

          Many? You mean the NRA. But see the following 4 points.

          1. physician duty to treat:

          Physician Duty to Treat

          A physician assumes a duty to treat a particular person when he or she agrees to do so or is expected to do so as a condition of employment. For example, if a mother brings her child to see a physician in private practice, the physician assumes responsibilities toward that child by seeing the child, conducting a history, physical examination, and so on. If that same mother takes her very sick child to a hospital, the physicians in the emergency department assume the responsibility to care for that child as a patient until such time as any life-threatening condition is brought under control or the child is transferred to other appropriate care.

          Both physicians and healthcare institutions can bring relationships – and their duties – to an end. Suppose a patient consistently fails to appear for appointments, fails to comply with recommended treatment, and fails to pay the physician. Under these circumstances, a physician can provide advance notice to the patient that he or she will not longer see and treat the patient. Patients can also be turned away for being unable to pay if physicians make efforts to ensure that the patient is not abandoned with regard to needed critical care. Healthcare institutions can take similar steps. In both cases, however, patients may not be abandoned at times of critical need.

          Broken appointments and fights between parents over management of their kids are pretty common and on rare occasion engender severance of relations. But yes, the doctor can do so, so long as the pt is not abandoned without care. But the doc, and not just the pt. can end the relationship. Also, if you have not seen or contacted the doc in three years (or so), the relationship ends. You can't call a doc and say "I haven't seen you in six years, you have to see me right now for x,y or z". The idea that the doc can fire you and not the other way around rarely occurs to patients.

          2. there is a process for it and 30 days is typical. Here is a how-to guide for the doc.

          Either offer to provide the patient with assistance in finding a new physician, or provide some suggestions directly in the letter, such as advising the patient to contact his or her insurer for names of nearby physicians who are panel providers. Provide the patient with a clear timetable for discharge, indicating that you will continue to see him or her for a specified period of time (i.e., 30 days) for any acute problems until he or she has had the opportunity to establish a relationship with another care provider.
          3. AAP has counseled inquiring about firearms since 2000. This news story (subscription wall) was from Oct 2012:
          The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) today released a policy statement urging pediatricians to counsel parents about the dangers of allowing children and adolescents access to guns. The statement, an update of a position paper first published in 2000 and reaffirmed in 2004, was published online today in Pediatrics and will appear in the November print edition of the journal.
          The full text is here (Firearm-Related Injuries Affecting the Pediatric Population).

          4. Public reaction via Carl Hiaasen (Florida loses another ridiculous legal battle):

          Written by the National Rifle Association, the so-called Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act would have prevented concerned physicians from asking patients about guns kept in their houses. It’s a reasonable query in domestic situations in which children might be at risk [and you can't know the risk until you make the inquiry — ed.].

          But the GOP-controlled Legislature wants doctors to shut up about guns and stick to lecturing women about their abortion decisions. So much for privacy.

          By necessity, doctors ask lots of personal questions. Are you using any illegal drugs? How much alcohol do you drink in a week? Do you smoke cigarettes? Do you suffer from depression?

          We’ve all filled out the checklists while sitting in the waiting room. And, on the examination table, we’ve all heard doctors and nurses ask things we wouldn’t post on Facebook.

          Say, have you noticed if your urine is changing color?

          Uh, no.

          Not all docs are happy about this battle, and some want the right but not the obligation to ask (adding 10 minutes for every patient adds up over the week and obligation implies penalty if you don't ask). And want to be paid for their time (there's no code for gun counseling, there's no procedure to bill for and 2500 extra minutes a week every week of unbilled time is daunting).

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:32:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This subject has come up in other forums a lot (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hangpilot

            I've made the determination that the answer to the "do you have guns" question, along with a whole list of others is going to be a simple no.  This will be the answer to any such question that I as the individual paying for your services deem is inappropriate or none of your business.  

            •  oh, you can answer any way you want (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              emelyn, Bisbonian

              your prerogative.

              But you will, as Hiaasen points out, get asked a lot of other personal questions, too. Part of the visit.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:13:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  In my view, asking about guns is quite different (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hangpilot

                than asking:

                Are you using any illegal drugs? How much alcohol do you drink in a week? Do you smoke cigarettes? Do you suffer from depression?
                I view it along with asking if I have drain cleaner or a chain saw in the house.  The above questions are health related and could impact or rather interact with prescribed medications.  

                The biggest problem I have with this is that I see it as nothing more than an anti-gun agenda being pushed by an anti-gun group that unless it has direct bearing on the nature of my visit, which as I pointed out I am paying for, should not be part of the discussion.  

                •  I accept you think that way (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bisbonian

                  but it is acceptable by society and the courts to think my way.

                  That's why in the FL case the pediatrician fired the patient. it'd be okay for you to leave and find someone else, works both ways.

                  The courts upheld the pediatrician's right to ask.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 01:11:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Pediatricians are concerned about the health and (7+ / 0-)

      wellbeing of their patients. So I have no problem at all about them asking children questions that can impact their health and wellbeing. And I think everyone who works with kids in any capacity, I believe, has every right to ask the children if they feel safe at home and encourage kids to talk about their home life. Because of doctors and guidance counselors and teachers talking to kids who appear to be upset, troubled, stressed, child abuse has been reported and kids in danger have been rescued from such homes.  Granted, I am talking child abuse here but I have seen the intervention of caregivers of kids including medical professionals help children and listen to kids and because of that, help the children.  

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:01:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  'Off limits'. Ie, you reserve the right to lie. (8+ / 0-)

      Pediatricians are using proven scientific evidence to measure the danger that 3 year old is in in a given household.  Allowing you the right to lie about it merely screws up the actual outcomes, and results in more dead 3 year olds.

      •  So now your trying to intimidate by throwing out (0+ / 0-)

        the term scientific evidence?  Great way to impress, not.  Doctors aren't the only ones who have made a profession out of science.  Go tell it to someone who thinks your the God that you've come to see yourselves as.

        Let me also make something very clear.  You, nor anyone else neither grants nor allows me to tell you anything; lie, truth, or indifferent.  I don't need your permission and I really don't give a rat's hat whether you like it or not.  If I don't think it is any of your business I won't answer and because your community has demonstrated that it can't be trusted in my view I am simply going to feed you the most innocuous answer possible, the one that keeps my information out of your databases.

    •  What makes you think (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk

      They are not trained and qualified to discuss guns and gun safety?  Plenty of doctors own and shoot guns.  Does having an MD immediately disqualify you to discuss guns and gun safety with a 3 year old, whose responsible gun owner parents may well NOT be doing that?

      •  Mayhap they are may hap they aren't (0+ / 0-)

        I still don't believe it has any business being part of the discussion unless it relates to why I am buying the service.

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