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View Diary: Cops say "Burn it Down" (250 comments)

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    •  Supposedly this will embed (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      twigg, Otteray Scribe, quill, gerrilea

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:07:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks. Kestrel is good with the audio stuff. (11+ / 0-)

      It is what he does for a living.  He was the one who cleaned up that Zimmerman audio.

      This radio traffic sounds like standard procedure when there is an armed and dangerous suspect.  The tear gas has started a fire in one end of the house.  The references to "fire" on the part of the police means that the snipers are ready to react if they can get a sight on the suspect, and will fire depending on what he does.  They are also trying to determine if there is a place for him to hide and escape the flames of the burning house.  They are not about to let the firefighters go anywhere near the place until it is secured.  The perp has just killed one deputy and the other was in critical condition in surgery while this audio was going on. They do not want any more dead or wounded officers or firefighters. He is not going to get any sympathy from officers on the scene.  

      Sounds as if they are concerned about that basement as a safe room for the perp.  I would be too.  Also,  those propane tanks are an additional hazard for everyone in the area.  

      The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

      by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:25:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (7+ / 0-)

        "seven burners deployed and we have a fire"

        suggests something different.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:32:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  A "burner" is a tear gas canister. (9+ / 0-)

          Translated from cryptic LEO slang to English it is something like, "We have deployed seven tear gas canisters and they have started a fire."

          The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

          by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:43:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And then they say that was the plan (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JohnnyBoston, SilentBrook, gerrilea

            after the fire had begun.

            They also ordered firefighters to not put the fire out. They said it was under control.

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            by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:54:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They cannot let firefighters approach (10+ / 0-)

              until they are 100% certain the perp is either dead or captured.  They just had one deputy killed and another wounded critically.  No law enforcement agency in the county will allow any first responder to go within the field of fire of a potential assassin.  That includes firefighters as well as EMS.

              That is standard operating procedure.  In listening to the audio provided K9k, I do not hear anything out of the ordinary, considering it is an extraordinary situation.  

              The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

              by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:00:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  From USA Today (8+ / 0-)
              After exchanging gunfire with officers, Dorner ran into the woods and broke into the cabin. As SWAT closed in, a single shot was heard inside before the cabin was engulfed in flames. As the fire grew, more gunshots were heard — apparently ammunition ignited by the fire, authorities said.

              Authorities let the cabin burn.

              "We won't allow them (firefighters) to get close to the cabin,'' said sheriff's spokeswoman Bachman. "It's just not safe.''

              Not sure who supposedly said the fire was under control. The place was loaded with weapons and ammunition and they didn't want firefighters injured or killed. Not sure I understand the degree of gainsaying that's going on with this story.
              •  The reason there is gainsaying is (9+ / 0-)

                because media weren't permitted to report on the story while it was ongoing. This had the inevitable effect of making the story murkier to follow later. This is part of the reason why I spent my evening following it as it unfolded; to ensure that someone had a sense of the narrative and timeline, and many others participated in that as well for the same purposes. Now there's still plenty to sort out. But some of what is being argued about was plain as day last night when it was transpiring in real time.

                I was frustrated then about the obvious wresting of the narrative from the MSM and this is why.

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                by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:10:59 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  MO, they had to assume the guy (7+ / 0-)

                  was still in there and heavily armed.  SOP for standoff or hostage situations is to keep civilians and first responders out of harm's way.  Reporters are civilians.  Since the guy was military trained and also LEO trained, they could not take any chances.  A good rifleman can make a kill shot at a thousand yards, if he has the right weapon.  Imagine a thousand yard (or thousand meter) circle around that cabin.  First rule is, we already have one dead and one critically wounded on scene, and we do not want any more collateral casualties.  The man was a determined killer, and was treated with the respect his professional skills as a rifleman warranted.  

                  I have a private story I will tell you sometime that is a very close parallel to this one.  In that event, the younger of my two sons was pinned down in a ditch in the median of an interstate highway.  He kept his head down and did not move.  His military training took over in a deadly situation.  The only injury he sustained was to his dignity and to his clothes.  He looked as if he had been mud wrestling when he got home.  

                  The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                  by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 11:56:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Firefights NEVER approach such situations (7+ / 0-)

              When there is a potential gunman inside or when ammunition is cooking off, firfighters do not approach the buring structure. This situation had both.

              Now not only are police expected to make WW1 human wave attacks, firefighters are expected to do so too.

              Did the fire spread to other cabin? No? Then it was "controlled" enough to not need firefighters risking bullet wounds or death.

            •  In fire fighting (6+ / 0-)

              the first priority is the safety of the firefighters. They fight fires, and often do rescue but do so with a plan based on what they know of a given situation the odds of them not getting hurt have to be good.

              This situation involved someone shooting, and live ammunition even if they had been right there they could not have gone in under those circumstances.

              It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is not what he has -Henry Ward Beecher

              by PSWaterspirit on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:01:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Not always. (4+ / 0-)

            There are incendiary devices called burners once used by the military. So your claim is tenuous at best.

            "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:06:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Take it up with The Guardian (2+ / 0-)

              Hint: County sherrifs are not part of the US military. Different groups have different terms. You might as well point out what jargon welder's use.

            •  I don't really see why it even matters (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              entrelac, wu ming, SilentBrook, gerrilea

              when the question is one of intentionality, and I think that the real issue is that the house was on fire, Dorner attempted to emerge, and it was reported (live) that he was pushed back inside of the burning house.

              That would seem to speak to "intent."

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              by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:12:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You are referring to thermite grenades. (5+ / 0-)

              There is no evidence that thermite was deployed.  For one thing, the fire would have been a lot bigger and spread faster than what I saw on the live fee.

              The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

              by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:15:43 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The LA Times reports "incendiary tear gas" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, Otteray Scribe

                introduced in the form of a grenade after the introduction of normal tear gas, which subsequently set off the fire. That's outside my expertise, and I'm writing fast over lunch, but what precisely is incendiary tear gas in grenade form? I'm not clear about what the particular constituents of it are, but I can see that it can mean several things and also that it's more flammable (presumably thus the term "incendiary.")

                Again, LATimes. Linked by another poster in this thread.

                Done with lunch. Back tonight?

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 12:51:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I cannot give you a definite answer (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive

                  because some people may call the same thing by different names.  I think they are talking about the chemical reaction tear gas grenade.  Tear gas spray that officers carry on their belt is non-incendiary since it sprays just like hair spray.  

                  The incendiary probably is referring to the fact the tear gas is generated by a small amount of highly flammable material that burns extremely hot.  The burn is only momentary, but can set stuff on fire.  Think fire extinguisher, which works on a chemical reaction rather than pressure.  The gas reaction is triggered by the flammable material, which then burns itself out.

                  Good question, I will try to find out more this evening.  BTW, I sent you a KosMail to give you some background on my rather cryptic previous comment.    

                  The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                  by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 01:55:30 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks, I only had a few minutes online (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Otteray Scribe, devis1

                    earlier, and now, upon walking in the door again at home, I am interested in the case still.

                    These things fascinate me. You know me. I want to get to the bottom of them knowing full-well that there probably is no bottom to be gotten to. They're all interesting to me.

                    I'll check my kosmail; check out what Max Blumenthal says here; I was reading many, many of his tweets last night and tuned to some of the same channels he was. He says thermite grenades, but I am not sure why. Hell, maybe you did call it the first go-round? And maybe it seemed odd because it is so odd to use outside of the military? But apparently they do. Remember, I've told you, California's police departments are deeply militarized compared to other PD's that I've seen. In my area alone, I've seen tanks. I'll tell you more about that privately. Tanks! TANKS.

                    http://www.alternet.org/...

                    He's got a ton to say, and, like a LOT of people watching last night, he thinks there is something odd. The entire twittersphere thinks something is odd. Some media outlets are starting to trip out too about some of the oddities. Well, here's his speculation (you need to read the article to follow his thinking -- and you can look at his twitter as well to see the timeline too).

                    The “burners,” or pyrotechnic rounds the San Bernadino County Sheriffs used to torch Dorner’s cabin, are likely similar, and perhaps more powerful, than those employed by the FBI in Waco. Through the five-year-old “Department of Defense Excess Property Program,” the US military has provided police departments across the country with billions of dollars worth of military equipment, from amphibious tanks to AR-15 assault rifles, allowing the military to circumvent Posse Comitatus regulations by outsourcing their firepower to local cops.

                    “Burners,” or military grade incendiary grenades, are very likely among the items passed down from the US army to local police outfits like the San Bernadino Sheriff’s Department.The “burner” of choice for the modern American soldier is the AN-M14 TH3. It is a hand held grenade comprised of a thermite mixture that rapidly converts to molten iron when it is thrown, burning at a temperature of 4000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn through a half inch steel plate or bring an engine block to a boil. It can also produce enough heat to set off unloaded ammunition, which would explain why the ammo inside Dorner’s hideout was popping.

                    If the San Bernadino Sheriffs employed the AN-M14 TH3 or something like it against Dorner – and it appears they did – they have good reason to attempt to cover their actions up. Without even a token attempt to establish communication with the suspect, who was, to be sure, a wanted killer hell-bent on murdering cops, they attacked him with what was likely a military grade weapon designed to destroy fortified structures. By burning Dorner alive, then misleading and deceiving the public about the operation, the sheriffs may have validated the rogue ex-cop’s sharpest indictments of the culture of American law enforcement.

                    I'm very close to calling my friend who is ex-SBSO and just flat asking. Other than that I don't know what I'd do with that information? So it seems odd.

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                    by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 04:31:11 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't know why they would want to use thermite. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mahakali overdrive

                      I have heard incendiary grenades referred to as burners.  Military slang and LEO slang are sometimes different and sometimes the same.  I am willing to wait for the investigation. There are way too many conflicting stories.  Way too much speculative gossip as well.  That is why I hope the FBI and ATF are involved in the investigation.  

                      The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                      by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:41:55 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You have more faith than I do (0+ / 0-)

                        in an inquiry. I see enough evidence, as is, of a desire to not be too forthcoming about what happened. I'm also not upset by speculation (ill-informed gossip and unreasoned hyperbole are different). It was logically be illogical to not speculate about the transparency of an agency whose transparency had long been questioned.

                        I don't know why they'd want to use thermite either; is it simply widely available compared with other types of incendiary agents? From what I've snooped online, yes. Also, I do believe, from what the transcript says, that they were using round two of tear gas grenades with intent to set a fire given how they talk about the fire itself, how they react to it.

                        But I am not 100% sure that's all I heard last night either since there were multiple scanner channels going before they were jammed (and no one can tell me they weren't jammed; another point of idiocy, the police said they weren't -- but you know the difference between a jammed scanner sound vs. an "off channel" scanner sound; anyone who has listened to these for any length of time knows that one).

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                        by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 06:19:15 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Although I must say that I'd favor (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          devis1

                          a Federal inquiry over a local one. Personal observation.

                          Still, the media was the best bet for some of that. And they stupidly turned their cameras off. That's ridiculous. I think we shall get our best reports from those on the ground who talk about it. If they talk about it.

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                          by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 06:21:04 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  OK, I have your answer. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive, ancblu

                  There is non-incendiary tear gas grenades that look exacty like (and work like) bug bombs.  They are used for confined spaces like jail cells or other small enclosed spaces where riot control may be necessary.  They do not contain much gas, and do not last very long.  Here is a demonstration of one.  This is a training grenade and does not contain actual tear gas or it would clear out the classroom.  These are mostly used for breaking up prison fights.

                  I don't own these pictures, so will just link to them.

                  Below is a cutaway drawing of how an incendiary grenade is made.  Notice the "Starter Mixture" at the top. This is the flammable mixture that starts the chemical reaction to cause the otherwise inert ingredients to react and create a volume of gas many times the amount the simple spray can can generate.  This is for clearing larger areas.  These are used when you want to have enough tear gas to immobilize a bad guy holed up in a house, garage or warehouse.  

                  http://www.brooksidepress.org/...

                  This picture is a photo of one of the grenades depicted in the drawing.

                  http://web.tradekorea.com/...

                  Hope this answers any questions.

                  Oh yes, there are thermite grenades.  Those are used when you actually want to burn something. Burning thermite gives off very little gas.  Note this thermite grenade burns through thick steel plate easily.  As I said before, the livestream video of the fire I saw was totally inconsistent with a fire started by thermite.  If these had been used, the cabin would have burned in a small fraction of the time it did burn.

                  The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                  by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 02:56:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The smoke color is indicative, right? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Otteray Scribe

                    I read last night someone saying it changed hues from green to red to black (or maybe red to green to black?) -- unsure what that means and so was the person who posted it. The fire was sudden. I think the burning lasted about an hour? I was liveblogging, so maybe two hours?

                    I wonder what the catalyzing agent was. Blumenthal thinks thermite since, if incendiary, then probably stock military grade stuff. That's his line of thought. But Googling around, I at least catch that there are other chemicals which can start that action too. White phosphorus is one, but that obviously wasn't used. Okay, so what color do these things burn because that is literally the only tip-off I have here, and I'm just reporting it without much ability to interpret the meaning, and I don't still have the tweet which mentioned it burned a few different colors. That was from last night and then, I didn't think the issue of whether the fire was intentional or not would even remotely come up (frankly, I contend that it seemed obvious to anyone watching that it was intentional -- no one challenged that, let alone mentioned it, and again, when the police said they didn't know how the fire started, it was shocking. They didn't say they didn't start it. They said, literally, they didn't know how it began at all. Big difference).

                    SBSO and LAPD were there. What kind of incendiary tear gas grenades did they have access to? That's the question. That should be able to be FOIA'd eventually like with the Occupy Oakland Scott Olsen case regarding what projectile was used.

                    It does not change the issue to me, but it's an interesting detail for an analytically-minded person.

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                    by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 04:41:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's here, in this transcript (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Otteray Scribe

                      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                      by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:27:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Did you see the link to the audio (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mahakali overdrive

                        that Kestrel cleaned up?

                        https://soundcloud.com/...

                        The real time audio gives a better sense of what was going down.

                        The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                        by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:44:28 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  It is impossible to read that (0+ / 0-)

                        transcript without concluding that the fire was expected and /or planned.

                        The SBSO Department stated today that the fire was not intentional, but if there is a 98% certainty that a fire will occur with the use of "incendiary tear gas" in an all-wood cabin can there be any argument that the likely outcome was, in fact, integral to the plan?

                    •  They are saying they cannot rule out (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ancblu

                      whether the tear gas grenades started it, or if the fugitive started it.  Both are possible, but without evidence from forensic fire experts, no scientific conclusion can be reached.  If they find an accelerant such as gasoline or kerosine in the cabin remains, then they have to suspect the suspect started it, same as the one in Jackson, MS in 1996.  When they say they don't know, it means they literally don't know this early in the investigation.  

                      I think the ignition mixture in tear gas grenades might vary depending on manufacturer.  I have been told on good authority that some use white phosphorus.  It does not take much...just a pellet.  I think most of them are more complex than just thermite or WP.  When one goes off, the end will spew a kind of little flame, but way hotter than a candle.  That only lasts a few seconds.  Also, the type of tear gas might vary.  When my daughter got her qualification, she was sprayed with a brand that is a mix of mace and pepper spray.  That was an aerosol spray and not the grenade type.  Said it was awful, and it took her two hours to get all of it out of her hair.  

                      The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                      by Otteray Scribe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:34:05 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Something like... (5+ / 0-)

          7 CS cannisters have been used on the cabin and a fire has broken out?

          Very sinister.

          Say we are still waiting for the first expression of concern  about the dead and crippled county deputies.

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