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View Diary: UPDATE: Bigotry on Dkos (380 comments)

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  •  I call your claim... (14+ / 14-)

    ... bullshit.

    STFU!

    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

    by justiceputnam on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:27:51 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  The term "illegal immigrant" dates from (16+ / 0-)

      1892, in the US.

      The use of the word "alien" to describe a non-citizen dates back to 1798.

      The term "illegal alien" is used in many statutes in the US, as well.

      Just out of curiosity, when exactly did the bigoted right wing appropriate the term?

      •  Actually The Term "Illegal Alien" (10+ / 0-)

        Came into widespread use with the Immigration Act of 1924 and it at the time had nothing to do with 'brown people', but then you can't cure willful ignorance or as I like to call it, stupidity.

        Like I've now stated already, it's much more entertaining to watch this individual stomp his semantic foot than to try and keep up with the ignorant comments.

        I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

        by superscalar on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:52:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  When did we stop using the word (10+ / 0-)

        "colored" to describe African-Americans?

        What about "negro"?

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:24:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good point (8+ / 0-)

          Always better to avoid language that deliberately inflames. "Alien" may be in the law, but so was "colored" for may years. "Illegal" is highly subjective - most immigration violations are violations of administrative, rather than criminal law, and using the term "illegal" stigmatizes unnecessarily. An undocumented or out of status "alien" or non-citizen is someone with a visa overstay. The term "illegal" should probably apply to someone who is in the United States after repeated deportations and has a ten year bar on re-entry, at which point the person may incur criminal liability for re-entry. The vast majority of "illegal" immigrants do not fit into this category, and it's simply more accurate to call them undocumented rather than "illegal".

          But this immigration debate polarizes people, even here. Lots of folks think that breaking the law - even an administrative law without criminal liability - is unacceptable. Others have been hurt by visas for non-citizens in the tech industry. They have some reason to feel some of this resentment, but most don't really understand how dysfunctional the immigration system is. If they knew that, many would be more sympathetic.

          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

          by ivorybill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:26:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How does the term deliberately inflame? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eyesbright

                 How does it do this?
            "Illegal" is simply an accurate term to describe their status. They lack the legal right, as proscribed by U.S. Immigration law, to remain in the country. "Illegal" doesn't necessarily mean criminal. For example, It's illegal to fail to pay all of the taxes you owe to the government by April 15, absent an extension, but you might not get a criminal penalty,, depending upon the amount and your record, you will more likely get a civil fine, having to pay the back taxes with a shiteload of interest.  You won't have a criminal record.  Apparently "illegal is the part of the term that most people take umbrage with.
                 What about "alien?" It sounds a little odd. As a Kid, though so. Sounded like something out of Star Trek. But it's a really just a government clinical term and it is accurate to describe one who is not a citizen. "Immigrant" is arguably better, or at least softer sounding. I really don't have a problem with that.
            "Undocumented" for many is not accurate, as in many cases, they had their entry documented.
            "Out of status" is inaccurate for many, as you have to have had a status in the first place to be out of it. If the Coke Machine is broken is it "Out of service. If it's in the factory being built and has never been put in service.
                yes, the debate polarizes people here. Look at this diary and the language that the diarist uses. Calling people "bigots" for using a term that people like Chuck Schumer, a very liberal, pro immigration reform Democrat uses, is certainly polarizing. So is telling people to STFU. So are people who repeat blatant falsehoods (I.E. it's not illegal to be in the country without authorization, you can't be prosecuted criminally for violating US immigration law etc.) and the people who rally about some obvious violations of the DK FAQs, just because the diarist is one of theirs. Of course this kind of behavior is going to polarize.

               

        •  The two aren't remotely similar (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DianaR, Eyesbright

          For one, we've evolved quite a bit from the days when "Colored" was used. Two, "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant" don't apply to any one race of people. A Swede or an Irishman is just  as "illegal" as a Mexican or Salvador who crossed the southern border illegally or an Indian on a H1-B who lost his job and can't find another one in a reasonable time. Also, the Obama administration is apparently comfortable with using this term. I doubt that  they are doing it to spite "Brown people" and pander to nativist bigots.

        •  What does that have to do with my comment? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          Which was, of course, in response to this claim in the diary:

          Before the bigoted right wing appropriated the term and its use became so widespread that even so called democrats use the term, the common usage was, "Undocumented Alien."
      •  This is kind of a bizarre diary. (4+ / 0-)

        I mean, there is something highly obnoxious about referring to even those immigrants who go through the official channels as "aliens."

        But it's what we're called... by the government. My tax forms -- for crying out loud -- distinguish between "non-resident alien" and "resident alien." This isn't really a matter for debate.

        Now, if we want to challenge the notion that this is a desirable label, I will be the first in line to change the nomenclature. I am, indeed, quite tired of being looked at as something cut from the same cloth as the chest-incubating creatures Sigourney Weaver has to polish off with a flame-thrower. There are plenty of other models for how to refer to foreign national non-citizens that use less abrasive language.

        But let's agree on what reality is: the word "alien" isn't just an epithet (though it is that, too). It is the point of departure for the federal government's categorization of foreign nationals on US soil.

        Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

        by Dale on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 05:13:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  good points (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eyesbright

          The government tends to use sterile, clinical terms to describe people and things. Remember POSSLQ? (People of the Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters). The Census Bureau came up with this gem to describe what most people would call "roommates." Governments often use awkward terms with no bigotry intended.

    •  Many states allow for driver licenses (8+ / 0-)

      to illegals - what whould you call that?

      No documetation?

      Before you start STFU'ing people you should get your facts straight.

      The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

      by ctexrep on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 06:06:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The documentation in question is a work permit, (5+ / 0-)

        in the form of a visa/green card.

        It's not illegal to be in the country without a work permit. It's also not illegal to have a driver's license and not have a work permit. It's illegal to work without documentation (A.K.A. a work visa) period.

        Not having a work visa doesn't make a human being an "illegal alien" any more than you're an "illegal American" because back when you were 11, your neighbor paid you to shovel snow.

        The act of crossing the border is illegal only if you cross it illegally -- most don't. They come to the US on a travel or school visa, and just stay here. Which is legal -- no laws broken.

        •  Visa is not a work permit. There are work permits (7+ / 0-)

          that have nothing to do with visas and green cards. Certain types of work are legal without a work visa. Overstaying the visa is breaking a law although it's only a misdemeanor.

          •  Technically, a Green Card is a visa (7+ / 0-)

            It allows multiple entry, with permission to work for normally, a ten year period.

            Other visas can allow employment too, but generally they are more restrictive.

            The Green Card is the only one considered to be "permanent", even though it isn't. So it carries the Lawful Permanent Resident tag too.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:43:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  In all of this, I think mainly of kids (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              renzo capetti, justiceputnam, twigg

              brought here before they could make decisions, or of those who also don't know their own status with ICE (a lot around here since many immigrants go back and forth from Mexico to California each year, and sometimes there are no records or no one knows because a baby is born in a field or a truck; this actually was the case of the person I mentioned in this diary).

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:23:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Green cards used to be more permanent (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              twigg

              My green card had no expiration date when it was issued in the early 1960s. The laws were changed at some point since then, making it necessary to renew periodically. Every ten years?

              We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate. -Pres. Obama, 1/21/13

              by SoCalSal on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 03:25:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Conditional" Green Cards (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Neon Mama, SoCalSal, justiceputnam

                are issued for two years, which is extended to ten years when you apply to have the condition removed ... another large fee!

                They are usually imposed when the application is based on a marriage that is less than two years old when the card is issued. The only condition is that you apply to have the condition removed within a tight window. There may be an interview.

                Normally cards, which used to have no expiry and were permanent, are now issued for ten years.

                Indications are that they will be renewed "almost" automatically, but again a large fee and no guarantees.

                It's a bureaucratic nightmare, even if English is your first language and you are decently educated.

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                Who is twigg?

                by twigg on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 05:58:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Large fees indeed. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  justiceputnam

                  Just looked it up -- $450 to renew a green card, or to replace a lost green card.

                  We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate. -Pres. Obama, 1/21/13

                  by SoCalSal on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 09:01:15 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  PLUS Biometrics fees...to get your prints taken. (0+ / 0-)

                    Buy Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand, and tear Ayn and the GOP new orifices. ALL ROYALTIES BETWEEN NOW AND MARCH 1, DONATED TO THIS SITE, DAILYKOS!! @floydbluealdus1

                    by Floyd Blue on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 09:28:41 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  When my ex... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SoCalSal

                    ... French Actress Wife had her purse and ID stolen from a secure building, getting her green card wasn't really that difficult.

                    Getting her mandated carte de identitie was a big chore; but we hung out at the Louvre when in Paris and travelled in the provinces looking for local armanac; ending up at one of the family chalets in Nice.

                    So, it wasn't so bad after all, now that I think about it.

                    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

                    by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 07:42:37 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Yup, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SoCalSal

                Actually it was by regulation, not law.  In 1996, then-INS decided that all those old green cards which did not have an expiration date were now expired and everyone had to get new ones (there actually is a subset of green cards that did not expire, but the vast majority did).  Problem is, they never really told anyone and I still see people with these old expired green cards who have no idea.  

                •  If they leave the country, they absolutely (0+ / 0-)

                  find out that fact upon re-entry.  They will then be required to obtain a new 10-year ARC.

                  Buy Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand, and tear Ayn and the GOP new orifices. ALL ROYALTIES BETWEEN NOW AND MARCH 1, DONATED TO THIS SITE, DAILYKOS!! @floydbluealdus1

                  by Floyd Blue on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 09:30:41 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  No, technically it is not (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dr Swig Mcjigger

              Becoming an immigrant is a two step process.  First, you need to get the immigration visa.  After you get that visa and enter the United States, you then need to apply for a green card.

              And no, it does not allow for work or entry for a ten year period.  The green card itself is only good for ten years, but the status does not expire with the green card.  The green card is simply evidence of the status, but does not determine the status.  

            •  Green cards are permanent in reality (0+ / 0-)

              If the holder wants them to be. They are easily renewed. They can even be renewed after they have expired.

              •  Exactly! (as long as you don't commit (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dr Swig Mcjigger

                certain crimes).

                But holding an expired green card for many years does not change one's status at all.  It will need to be renewed when an employer demands it, or international travel demands it.

                Buy Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand, and tear Ayn and the GOP new orifices. ALL ROYALTIES BETWEEN NOW AND MARCH 1, DONATED TO THIS SITE, DAILYKOS!! @floydbluealdus1

                by Floyd Blue on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 09:32:08 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Not necessarily (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DianaR

          The documentation can be a tourist visa, a student visa or family based visa.

          The act of crossing the border is illegal only if you cross it illegally -- most don't. They come to the US on a travel or school visa, and just stay here. Which is legal -- no laws broken.
          Tautology aside, this is not exactly correct. It is legal to come here on student or travel visa, but it is not legal to stay beyond that limit, so in fact, laws are broken.
    •  It's hidden -- is the pile-on necessary? (22+ / 0-)

      It takes two donuts to hide a comment. After that, every donut is an attempt to reduce someone's mojo or have them banned. Generally speaking.

      Y'all bear that in mind.

      There are five donuts on this right now.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 06:41:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Got Eleven HR's so far... (17+ / 0-)

        ... hopefully Kos will not ban me; I have a poem lined up for Black Kos on tuesday.

        Won't be able to if I'm banned.

        So be it, I guess.

        Funny though. Stand up for the rights of the downtrodden on a liberal blog I have been a part of for over 6 years and folks want to ban me for my "stridency."

        Funny.

        A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

        by justiceputnam on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:01:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Can I ask a question? (13+ / 0-)

          I doubt I'd heard the term "undocumented immigrant" b/4 coming to Daily kos. I had heard the other word plenty of times. Yes, it was in my vocabulary because it was what I'd learned.

          After I came to Daily Kos, I saw some people felt the word was unacceptable. So I quit using it. Why? They  were friends and allies. Why would I want to offend??

          I look through the threads and I see people trying to prove that its okay because it was used here and there. Why isn't it enough that it may be hurtful to a group of people who are friends and allies?

          As a member of Courtesy Kos, I am dedicated to civility and respect for all kossacks, regardless of their opinions, affiliations, or cliques.

          by joedemocrat on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:20:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know why "undocumented immigrant" (8+ / 0-)

            is an issue.

            "undocumented alien" is a horrible term, but it is fairly accurate ... even though many are actually "documented"

            "Out of status alien" would be the most accurate for most, but it's a mouthful.

            "Illegal alien" is horrible. It is inaccurate .. well plain wrong, and used to stigmatize.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 09:15:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Out of status isn't a good term for lots (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DianaR

              out of status implies that you had a proper status to begin with. It would be accurate for a legal entrant who overstayed, for example, but not for someone who hid in the back of a truck. Undocumented would be inaccurate for many, too. Their entry into the country was in fact documented, but they overstayed their legal right to remain.

              Illegal alien may sound harsh but it is not inaccurate. The person's presence in the country is not legal and since they are not citizens, they are, under US law aliens. How is that inaccurate?

          •  Language politics and identity (7+ / 0-)

            general acknowledges the preferred identity of a people. There should be no reason anyone choose to use such a term when it has been publicly and widely stated as unacceptable.

            In the same way we don't use terms that are not preferred by gay people, transfolk, people with different physical abilities, people with neuro-differences, women, Democrats, Jewish people, Muslim people, and people of different minorities, for a few examples, in that same way, we should use the preferred term for "undocumented immigrants." That is the preferred term. I am certain of this from my activism around this issue. I could sit here and cite thousands of references on this ranging from blogs to legal cases to published medias to protests.

            I think some people here on this site are not willing to give this group of human beings the same equal regard as they are the groups I mention above. And that, to me, is sad and inexcusable. However, it is true: there is a particular disregard for undocumented immigrants that attempts to justify something that no one will attempt to justify for other groups. That is just plainly dehumanizing and also, very selectively non-enforced toward this one group of human beings.

            I can pull up citations about this preference from Latinos if people do not believe me (I see some stories here claiming the opposite to be true -- but for that, I think it's much like during the African Civil Rights era, perhaps, when the nomenclature took a while to catch on?) -- but I really wish people would realize that this has been a real source of pain for a group of people for a very long time and that this group of people, by and large, has in fact asked to not be called what some call them anymore.

            The term is "undocumented immigrant." "Undocumented person" is even better. "People without green cards" is fine. According to these people.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:11:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Hey Justice (4+ / 0-)

          Thanks for the diary.  I doubt you will be banned and I don't think you should be banned.  

          Probably better not to use "STFU" as it tends to be misinterpreted.

          As far as the substance of your diary, I agree.

          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

          by ivorybill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:34:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's just silly. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger, justiceputnam

          It takes more than a single pile on 'stfu' comment to get a person banned, especially one with history and mojo.

          There's some account on here I looked at the other day that had over 100 HR's in his first dozen comments on site, spanning multiple diaries, and still hadn't been banned.

          Anybody can get hit with a pile-on, and a single pile-on generic comment like that isn't going to draw a ban.

      •  Now it's not hidden...community standards (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mark Mywurtz, Dr Swig Mcjigger

        be damned eh? I hate this double-standard.

        I see what you did there.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 04:05:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree with the hide rates (16+ / 0-)

      Justice is entitled to his opinion on this. I think you all are too quick to fling the donuts.

      Discuss why he's wrong - if he is wrong. And a pile on is definitely not necessary.

      In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

      by vcmvo2 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:18:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  STFU is an opinion youre entitled to?nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Flying Goat, Dr Swig Mcjigger

        I see what you did there.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 08:46:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The pile on wasn't necessary, imo (6+ / 0-)

          I didn't HR, but nor did I criticize those who did.

          But Justice is a good community member, and he didn't deserve that.

          Again ... imho

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 09:17:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a pile-on -- after two, the donuts say, "Hey, (9+ / 0-)

            you... I'd like to see your mojo knocked."

            I hope everyone still throwing donuts realizes that Justiceputnam is an esteemed editor of the Black Kos, and that this diary has the backing of the several groups which republished it, all of which concern civil rights in some form or another.

            The comment? It echoes the diary. In the diary it presents a hypothetical: "If you feel X, then I will respond with Y."

            Here someone responded with "X." Justiceputnam responded with Y. As per his own diary.

            You'd have to be a very short-sighted individual to not see that many of these donuts are not at the comment, but are a "fuck you" to calling people "undocumented immigrants," and thus a fuck you, in truth, to undocumented immigrants.

            Ug-ly.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:20:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Some things are worth getting angry about (7+ / 0-)

              This, I believe, is one of them.

              Yet when you get angry, responses in kind will flow freely ... It's the nature of the beast.

              I find it most helpful to try to see through the language to try to understand the message. It keeps me sane, but not everyone does that so we get comment threads that get messy.

              I don't even mind that too much, but I do wish folk would research who they are HR'ing before they pile-on ... It might stay a few hands.

              Some people have earned the right to be admonished without the sanctimony that can accompany it.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:28:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, I almost never get truly angry (7+ / 0-)

                in my life. I am not an angry person at all. So when I come online, I don't normally get very angry either. This is more like righteous indignation and a sense that what is happening is ethically wrong.

                And I will act in solidarity with undocumented immigrants on this, for whom justiceputnam is attempting to speak for. I'm sure many undocumented person's feel like saying far, far more than what he said, so if anything, he's been gracious.

                I felt like my first explanation would work. Apparently, it did not. That is ugly. I cannot abide that. I cannot sit here quietly and let that happen. It's morally wrong for me to do that.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:36:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It might be worth remembering (6+ / 0-)

                  that your first explanation did actually work :)

                  It worked for all those readers who chose not to become embroiled in the thread. They read it, and they read the counterpoints and reached a conclusion :)

                  I know, I know ... I sometimes forget that too, but not often.

                  You almost never persuade those who are arguing with you, but you do influence many others. At best, debate opponents reach a grudging respect :)

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:43:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Good reminder, Twigg (13+ / 0-)

                    I do hope my first explanation got more people thinking.

                    But honestly, I am sad to see more join. When I wake up tomorrow, will there be more? Another dropped a donut the moment I uprated... like it's a game.

                    It's not a game. Deportation facilities are places where children are taken from their families and kept at times for months. The most notorious was Children's Hutto Prison (now, I believe, shut down).

                    THESE are the women and children people demand the "right" to hatefully slur with these terrible words. Tell me you don't tear up reading this, because I do every time: http://www.aclu.org/...

                    http://www.hrw.org/...

                    The frequency with which sexual assault, abuse, and harassment occur in detention is largely unknown. The Bureau of Justice Statistics collects some data on the problem that includes incidents in facilities run by or exclusively for ICE. But it does not tabulate the numbers of assaults on immigration detainees held in state and county jails where ICE rents a portion of the bed space.

                    WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THIS CHILD?

                    Children, too, have apparently been subject to alleged abuse in Texas immigration detention facilities, although their care is overseen by the US Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), rather than ICE. Nine Central American children, one of whom was identified as 16 years old, reported sexual and physical abuse while in the custody of Texas Sheltered Care, a facility in Nixon, Texas, contracted by DHHS. According to claims submitted in a lawsuit, the children were fondled, groped, and forced to perform oral sex on one guard, and some were beaten by other guards. Although one guard was eventually prosecuted and convicted of sex abuse, the suit claims that the children’s allegations were initially met with retaliation and cover-up attempts by facility officials. Children who complained were reportedly transferred punitively to other facilities, denied food, made to sleep on the ground, and deprived of access to medical care.
                    The incidents we know about could easily be the tip of the iceberg because the people who may have been victims of abuse are, more often than not, deported… We urgently need ICE to improve the system for taking reports of abuse from detainees and to publish information that will clarify the scope of the problem.

                    Another article on this group of people who some here demand to call "aliens" or "illegal": http://www.pbs.org/...

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 11:06:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Keep workin' it, Mahakali (5+ / 0-)

                      The immigration issue can become almost as contentious as the RKBA thing. I think a lot of it comes from not having enough exposure to undocumented immigrants or asylum seekers, or really experiencing how completely broken the immigration system really is.  Most people of good faith will come around on this.  I kinda wish Justice had not used STFU because this is going to take persuasion and building allies, but I really don't think he meant it quite as rudely as some people took it.

                      Immigration reform is coming. It's a little like marriage equality - it's a matter of how long, and how many people get hurt in the meantime (or how many people end up excluded).  We need to shift the focus of the discussion from whether "illegals" should have a pathway to citizenship, to determining best public policy, which may mean not granting a pathway to citizenship to all undocumented people but the ones who have established themselves here. The whole process has to be designed to protect those who flee violence as well. If we can redirect the conversations in those directions, our party at least will start building consensus.  

                      A good place to start is with language though, and people need to hear a less confrontational message on why "undocumented" or "out of status" is preferable to "illegal".  Your comments do that.

                      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

                      by ivorybill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:42:20 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A rhetorical... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mahakali overdrive

                        ... flourish comes in many guises.

                        Granted, the STFU was meant to enflame; enflame those who would insist on furthering the stigmatization.

                        But those who know me; and I admit, there are many here who never listen to Netroots Radio, or my Sunday and Monday world music shows or go to Black Kos; those who know me know that sarcasm is a major arrow in my quiver.

                        And I am always reminded that sarcasm does not translate in text, very well.

                        To me, STFU has as much impact as lol.

                        Others take it far too seriously.

                        But I am adamantly against bigotry; and admittedly, go off.

                        I am way beyond trying to convince someone to "see it my way," I am not trying to persuade.

                        I am simply making a point.

                        I am truly a lover. But I will fight for the downtrodden, the marginalized; in that endeavor, I do get strident.

                        It is who I am. But we are a community. I am well aware of that; and this community is more important than any bullshit I might throw. Ultimately, all of this is to make us think and become an even stronger community.

                        That does get lost in my "drama."

                        For that, I am dutifully chagrined.

                        A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

                        by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 07:57:20 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  It's unclear how HRs and uprates affect each (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dr Swig Mcjigger

                other.  Yes, there are people who have this important fact of life memorized.  For those who don't, it's also non-trivial to tell if the comment is actually hidden.  As a result, you get this "pile-on" effect.

                I'd argue this is largely a problem with DK's interface.

              •  So the rules only apply (0+ / 0-)

                when you want them to ? NO one should be HR proof if they don't follow the rules.

          •  Being a good community member (0+ / 0-)

            doesn't entitle  one to break rules, including the one of "Don't be a dick."

        •  I'll grant you justiceputnam ought not to... (9+ / 0-)

          have used the term "STFU."
          Kinda rude.

          But I find the casual use of the phrase "illegals" upthread far, far more upsetting.
          ymmv...

          •  Amen... (7+ / 0-)

            We need a civil conversation on this, because we need to build allies.  But hopefully, those who prefer the term "illegal" will at least listen to the argument for comprehensive immigration reform, and will attempt to understand the complexity of the issue, and why labeling someone as "illegal" is factually inaccurate much of the time, and rude all of the time.  We don't want to go down the RKBA path with folks screaming at each other - we want consensus and a way forward.  

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:45:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Civil" conversation being the key. (3+ / 0-)

              I enjoy and thrive on being educated and enlightened about an issue... this being one of them.  But being called a so-called democrat bigot and told to STFU or else doesn't really engage me as much as enrage me -- and now everything this poster writes carries that prejudice.

              Not exactly Dale Carnegie material.

              Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
              Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

              by here4tehbeer on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 05:13:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Dale... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                .... fuckin' Carnagie?

                I am not trying to influence and persuade.

                I am making a point.

                If my use of STFU enrages because of one's insistence on using bigoted language, then so be it.

                Sometimes it takes a STFU to get people to listen.

                Well... folks have taken notice.

                Good job in the circles I run with.

                A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

                by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 08:02:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  This diary isn't the way (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mark Mywurtz

              To   a civil conversation. Nor is uprating blatant violations of the community standards on the ground that someone is apparently respected (although, I have to say, not by a lot of us) and has a "history." Many longtime users have been banned, after all.

              We also aren't going to get to the civil conversation by claiming that people aren't listening to arguments for immigration reform simply because they use different terminology. I support immigration reform, which includes the dreaded "A" word and a path to citizenship. I support allowing people who were children when their parent brought them here illegally to remain in the country. Calling me a "bigot" and to "STFU" or supporting such behavior is no way to start a civil discourse.

              And no it is not inaccurate to label someone's presence here as Illegal, if it is not authorized by law and nor is it rude to point that out.

          •  There's no rule on here (0+ / 0-)

            against not upsetting someone, though.

      •  I Am Uprating For Two Reasons (7+ / 0-)

        First, I agree that there is no need to pile on anyone expressing an opinion generally. HRs are not intended to be used to express disagreement, as anyone who knows the rules here knows. Nothing about what Justice wrote violates the rules of the site or is so beyond the pale as to indicate that nobody should see it.  Moreover, and speaking for myself only, anyone who can't read the acronym "STFU" on the internet without freaking out really shouldn't be hanging out on a political site. Seriously. We're not children needing to be protected from each other. If your skin isn't thick enough (and I say that as someone who very rarely, if ever, uses the acronym) to be able to plow through stuff like that, and focus on the substance, perhaps a website focusing on more sanguine matters like basketweaving would be a better fit.

        The second reason is that I'm a believer in making a case if you disagree, not just piling on.  Justice is incorrect IMO, but he's only partially incorrect. As a lawyer, I am concerned with the law. As an activist, I'm concerned with the human. In this case, the language used in one sphere is inconsistent with that desired in the other. This is the basis, IMO, for the conflicts that spawn everytime someone uses the term "illegal alien."

        Alien means "any person not a citizen or a national of the United States." "Immigrant" is defined as every alien except for those specially-enumerated classes of aliens who are not here permanently, whether because of the conditional or temporary nature of the reasons for their presence in the US or their actual intent to be here only temporarily or both.  The word "undocumented" is, to my knowledge, not used at all in immigration law - it is strictly a political term and it is a term created by the Left; there's just no denying that, however salutary the reasons.  

        "Illegal" means "contrary to the law" or "not authorized by law." (Black's Law Dictionary). There's not rational way to argue differently, not if you're talking about the law. Thus, when a person enters without valid status under a visa of some type, or remains without valid status after it's expiration, it is illegal. It may not be a violation of the criminal law (entry may be, entering after overstaying and triggering a ban or after being removed out definitely is, mere presence without those things is not). But illegal it remains. Many people argue, particularly when discussing immigration, that because something is not criminal it is not illegal. But no definition of the word illegal has ever been so limited. Not in this context or any other.

        However, I think that Justice is trying to discuss this not as as a legal matter, but as a human matter.  And Justice's point is well taken, at that level: given the "fearful otherness" that the culture has imbued the word "alien" with generally, use of the term "illegal alien" evokes a xenophobic reaction and makes it easy to forget that we're dealing with people, with human beings. Hopefully the law will catch up with his feelings about the term "alien" immigant" being an inhumane term, because his point is well taken.

        I have a harder time on the objection to the word illegal, though, for the reason I've identified above. Like it or not, it is illegal. Thus, my personal term is "illegal immigrant" because I believe it is that term that most accurately reflects the status in which millions find themselves. I also use "undocumented immigrant" -- but ONLY for political reasons. As a matter of law, the word "undocumented" is underinclusive. A person can enter the US with valid documentation as a temporary visitor and subsequently decide to stay with or without permission; that person is not undocumented regardless of that change of intent. It therefore leaves out millions who were not EWI (entry without status) in addressing necessary fixes to the immigration law, a body of law which judges have routinely railed about for its internal inconsistencies and general opaqueness and activists have railed against for its racism, classism and ineffectiveness at finding a good balance between the desire to encourage human migration and the legitimate desire to ensure that in a world where most borders are NOT open, a country's inarguable right to control the flow of migration into its borders.

        This is a long response but I found it necessary given that this business of language when it comes to illegal immigration is IMO distracting. The larger far more important issue is not language, but law.

        •  Thank you for this response (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          justiceputnam

          It covers everything so well. One request, could you diary this?

          In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

          by vcmvo2 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:49:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you... (0+ / 0-)

          ... Shanikka!

          A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

          by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 08:06:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I am not coming at this from a point... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mahakali overdrive, shanikka

          ... of Law.

          But from the sentiment that caused Woody Guthrie to pen, "Deportee."

          I'm a little bit St Francis and whole lotta asshole.

          it is my liability. But I love humanity too much to just go along to get along.

          I am in agreement, wholeheartedly.

          But my asshole-ness does get in the way.

          I should have just been a dancer.

          But the pull of human rights has always been too strong.

          Thank you again, Shanikka.

          A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

          by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 08:17:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated, not because it falls within (7+ / 0-)

      the province of site rules. I don't think it does.

      Uprated in solidarity, I suppose as an act of civil disobedience. If I get a warning, fine. I accept that completely.

      But I read your update, and it moved me to uprate this post for this reason. First time I ever have done that here on this site out of a refusal to yield to bigotry and those who would punish you for refusing to understand that they are punishing you for trying to stand up for undocumented immigrants, which is a very virtuous thing.

      I am no coward. If I am NR'd or warned or whatever, so be it, but I believe that while I don't support the post, in this case, those HR'ing it in a pile-on are doing so out of hatred for undocumented persons (most of them) since I'd already warned that it would harm justiceputnam's mojo.

      I'm not even 100% clear IF the comment is HRable. It's on the edge, actually. It could be argued a few ways. It's not a comment one would be banned over, for example.

      Solidarity and I refuse to sit here and let an Editor of the Black Kos be dumped on this way without doing something. Fine. This is all I have.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:31:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Updated. Yes was rude and the hrs are (5+ / 0-)

      legitimate. But I just find the discussion here more valuable as visible than the bit of rudeness.

    •  Spare me the pearl clutchage (4+ / 0-)
    •  Such a stellar, intelligent rebuttal (0+ / 0-)

      Immigration reform is going to sail through Congress with such heavy intellectual backing.

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