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View Diary: UPDATE: Bigotry on Dkos (380 comments)

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  •  It's a pile-on -- after two, the donuts say, "Hey, (9+ / 0-)

    you... I'd like to see your mojo knocked."

    I hope everyone still throwing donuts realizes that Justiceputnam is an esteemed editor of the Black Kos, and that this diary has the backing of the several groups which republished it, all of which concern civil rights in some form or another.

    The comment? It echoes the diary. In the diary it presents a hypothetical: "If you feel X, then I will respond with Y."

    Here someone responded with "X." Justiceputnam responded with Y. As per his own diary.

    You'd have to be a very short-sighted individual to not see that many of these donuts are not at the comment, but are a "fuck you" to calling people "undocumented immigrants," and thus a fuck you, in truth, to undocumented immigrants.

    Ug-ly.

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    by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:20:54 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Some things are worth getting angry about (7+ / 0-)

      This, I believe, is one of them.

      Yet when you get angry, responses in kind will flow freely ... It's the nature of the beast.

      I find it most helpful to try to see through the language to try to understand the message. It keeps me sane, but not everyone does that so we get comment threads that get messy.

      I don't even mind that too much, but I do wish folk would research who they are HR'ing before they pile-on ... It might stay a few hands.

      Some people have earned the right to be admonished without the sanctimony that can accompany it.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      Who is twigg?

      by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:28:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, I almost never get truly angry (7+ / 0-)

        in my life. I am not an angry person at all. So when I come online, I don't normally get very angry either. This is more like righteous indignation and a sense that what is happening is ethically wrong.

        And I will act in solidarity with undocumented immigrants on this, for whom justiceputnam is attempting to speak for. I'm sure many undocumented person's feel like saying far, far more than what he said, so if anything, he's been gracious.

        I felt like my first explanation would work. Apparently, it did not. That is ugly. I cannot abide that. I cannot sit here quietly and let that happen. It's morally wrong for me to do that.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:36:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It might be worth remembering (6+ / 0-)

          that your first explanation did actually work :)

          It worked for all those readers who chose not to become embroiled in the thread. They read it, and they read the counterpoints and reached a conclusion :)

          I know, I know ... I sometimes forget that too, but not often.

          You almost never persuade those who are arguing with you, but you do influence many others. At best, debate opponents reach a grudging respect :)

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:43:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good reminder, Twigg (13+ / 0-)

            I do hope my first explanation got more people thinking.

            But honestly, I am sad to see more join. When I wake up tomorrow, will there be more? Another dropped a donut the moment I uprated... like it's a game.

            It's not a game. Deportation facilities are places where children are taken from their families and kept at times for months. The most notorious was Children's Hutto Prison (now, I believe, shut down).

            THESE are the women and children people demand the "right" to hatefully slur with these terrible words. Tell me you don't tear up reading this, because I do every time: http://www.aclu.org/...

            http://www.hrw.org/...

            The frequency with which sexual assault, abuse, and harassment occur in detention is largely unknown. The Bureau of Justice Statistics collects some data on the problem that includes incidents in facilities run by or exclusively for ICE. But it does not tabulate the numbers of assaults on immigration detainees held in state and county jails where ICE rents a portion of the bed space.

            WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THIS CHILD?

            Children, too, have apparently been subject to alleged abuse in Texas immigration detention facilities, although their care is overseen by the US Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), rather than ICE. Nine Central American children, one of whom was identified as 16 years old, reported sexual and physical abuse while in the custody of Texas Sheltered Care, a facility in Nixon, Texas, contracted by DHHS. According to claims submitted in a lawsuit, the children were fondled, groped, and forced to perform oral sex on one guard, and some were beaten by other guards. Although one guard was eventually prosecuted and convicted of sex abuse, the suit claims that the children’s allegations were initially met with retaliation and cover-up attempts by facility officials. Children who complained were reportedly transferred punitively to other facilities, denied food, made to sleep on the ground, and deprived of access to medical care.
            The incidents we know about could easily be the tip of the iceberg because the people who may have been victims of abuse are, more often than not, deported… We urgently need ICE to improve the system for taking reports of abuse from detainees and to publish information that will clarify the scope of the problem.

            Another article on this group of people who some here demand to call "aliens" or "illegal": http://www.pbs.org/...

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            by mahakali overdrive on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 11:06:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Keep workin' it, Mahakali (5+ / 0-)

              The immigration issue can become almost as contentious as the RKBA thing. I think a lot of it comes from not having enough exposure to undocumented immigrants or asylum seekers, or really experiencing how completely broken the immigration system really is.  Most people of good faith will come around on this.  I kinda wish Justice had not used STFU because this is going to take persuasion and building allies, but I really don't think he meant it quite as rudely as some people took it.

              Immigration reform is coming. It's a little like marriage equality - it's a matter of how long, and how many people get hurt in the meantime (or how many people end up excluded).  We need to shift the focus of the discussion from whether "illegals" should have a pathway to citizenship, to determining best public policy, which may mean not granting a pathway to citizenship to all undocumented people but the ones who have established themselves here. The whole process has to be designed to protect those who flee violence as well. If we can redirect the conversations in those directions, our party at least will start building consensus.  

              A good place to start is with language though, and people need to hear a less confrontational message on why "undocumented" or "out of status" is preferable to "illegal".  Your comments do that.

              “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

              by ivorybill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 02:42:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A rhetorical... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                ... flourish comes in many guises.

                Granted, the STFU was meant to enflame; enflame those who would insist on furthering the stigmatization.

                But those who know me; and I admit, there are many here who never listen to Netroots Radio, or my Sunday and Monday world music shows or go to Black Kos; those who know me know that sarcasm is a major arrow in my quiver.

                And I am always reminded that sarcasm does not translate in text, very well.

                To me, STFU has as much impact as lol.

                Others take it far too seriously.

                But I am adamantly against bigotry; and admittedly, go off.

                I am way beyond trying to convince someone to "see it my way," I am not trying to persuade.

                I am simply making a point.

                I am truly a lover. But I will fight for the downtrodden, the marginalized; in that endeavor, I do get strident.

                It is who I am. But we are a community. I am well aware of that; and this community is more important than any bullshit I might throw. Ultimately, all of this is to make us think and become an even stronger community.

                That does get lost in my "drama."

                For that, I am dutifully chagrined.

                A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

                by justiceputnam on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 07:57:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  It's unclear how HRs and uprates affect each (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dr Swig Mcjigger

        other.  Yes, there are people who have this important fact of life memorized.  For those who don't, it's also non-trivial to tell if the comment is actually hidden.  As a result, you get this "pile-on" effect.

        I'd argue this is largely a problem with DK's interface.

      •  So the rules only apply (0+ / 0-)

        when you want them to ? NO one should be HR proof if they don't follow the rules.

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