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View Diary: [UPDATE] NYT drops Starr bombshell, it disappears, then reappears! (145 comments)

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  •  Tangentially related (4.00)
    I don't know what Clinton is up to these days.  I don't know how or why he has sublimated his anger over impeachment and the (wrong) doings of Starr.

    Did you see him last night on Larry King?  We have yet more confirmation about his new best friend, George H.W. Bush--heck, he's headed up to Kennebunkport soon to go boating with Bush. He hardly mentioned W. by name and then went on to say that he has many "disagreements" with W.  He avoided any vilification of the Republican party, saying that it's not helpful to call leaders "idiots".

    I'm not convinced that Clinton is a complete sell-out. I wish I could see his hand.  It seems to me he has something up his sleeve.

    "I'm not interested in that same liberal claptrap. That meow, meow, meow, ironic detachment." -- Stephen Colbert

    by SneakySnu on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 10:38:39 AM PDT

    •  Keep your enemies close n/t (4.00)

      "It does not take many words to tell the truth." Chief Joseph

      by Gabriele Droz on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 10:49:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's not forget the OKC bombing happened (1.00)
      on Clinton's watch, and more and more OKC is looking like a dress rehearsal for the twin towers.  I never believed that Tim and his load of fertilizer did all of the damage to that building. It was a load of fertilizer alright, but not ammonium nitrate that made that disaster happen. It all stinks, and the hell of it all is you just don't know who you can trust these days.

      With these elite ruling classes, the ends always justify the means. They are not the ones having to suffer and bury their loved ones. I loved Bill, but I must admit....it is getting harder by the day to feel that way.

      One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato

      by KGlenn on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 11:09:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A little over the top.... (none)
        You think "allowed" Oklahoma City to happen?  That's a wild charge.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

        by Cathy on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 11:12:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lol (none)
          a little???

          Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

          by markymarx on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 11:15:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yep. Someone allowed it to happen. (none)
          You explain to me how a crater can develop over to the side and down from where a truck of explosives were parked? There are a lot of unanswered questions concerning that whole ordeal, just like there are with the towers.
          I guess you had to be in Oklahoma to see and understand the bullshit surrounding the whole thing.
          One thing for sure: it definitely shut this country up about Waco.

          One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato

          by KGlenn on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 11:26:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Way over the top. (none)
            How can you "love Bill" and think he let that happen?

            No doubt there are unanswered questions, but you've got the president at the time sitting there knowing about and letting it happen.  I guess it was so he could be "relevant" again.

            Geez, horrendously over the top

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

            by Cathy on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 11:32:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sometimes to get to the truth (none)
              you have to question the ones that you love.

              Troll rate away, I don't come here to get trusted user status anyway.

              One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato

              by KGlenn on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 12:55:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I should have rated you (none)
                marginal at least, but I preferred just telling you what I thought and leaving it at that.

                Asking questions is good and healthy, implying the evil of letting people be murdered because you're part of the "ruling class" is way past healthy skepticism and crosses over into irresponsible paranoiac accusations.

                "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

                by Cathy on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 01:12:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ignoring the facts (none)
                  doesn't do anyone any good either.  There are unanswered questions about OKC.  Might be irresponsible to blame Clinton, but sticking our heads in the sand much as we'd like to ignore the ugly truth isn't helping much either.  

                  Am I allowed to shamelessly plug my little blog?

                  by ChuckLin on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 03:12:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And that's the key (none)
                    I advocate not being irresponsible by blaming Clinton, asking tough questions that might lead to blame might make me uncomfortable but I wouldn't deem it irresponsible.

                    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

                    by Cathy on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 04:09:04 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  just maybe (none)
              he/she's a lying freeper maggot?
          •  Clinton didn't let that happen (4.00)
            You just have to take my word for it, but I've followed Clinton since he began his political career in the 70's. I've met him a few times and even went to the same public school as his daughter, although she was in pre-school while I was in my senior year of high school. The person you see on television is the same person he is in real life and he doesn't have some dark, conspiratorial side to him like you seem to suggest.

            My father, who was an extremely intelligent man himself and had spent time chatting with Clinton one-on-one at parties before Clinton had ever been elected to office, once told me Clinton was the smartest man he'd ever met and said this even though he didn't completely agree with Clinton's political views.

            I'm not thrilled about his relationship with the elder Bush either and I often find myself unsure of his political motives as well. But he's a shrewd politician who does many things for reasons that aren't always apparent and the results are normally positive when all is said and done. And if we're not happy about his relationship with the elder Bush, how do you think the Clinton haters feel? Believe me when I say they're much more disgusted than we are with this odd relationship and that gives me a little bit of satisfaction.

            Clinton isn't perfect and I don't always agree with him, but he's not some immoral conspiratorialist who would intentionally hurt people for political gain. I don't buy that and it's not indicative of the same Clinton I know so well.

            Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

            by rogun on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 01:58:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You explain to me... (none)
            how a crater can develop over to the side and down from where a truck of explosives were parked?

            Uh, hello....  It's called freshman physics.

            The blast energy was partly transmitted by physical flying objects and partly by the movement of compressed air.  That is, WAVES in the air.  Waves can be refracted, reflected, diffracted--all depending on what they hit and/or pass through.  

            You don't get another hearing on that idea until you pass physics 101.

            Hijack their frames! Cheap, easy, effective.

            by chriscol on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 08:37:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I shouldn't take this kind of bait (4.00)
        but when there are more sites on Google devoted to unfounded conspiracies than there are sites to refute them-- like this one

        http://www.monitor.net/monitor/8-19-95/blast.html

        I just need to remind folks that it is so easy to put two and two together and come up with 22.

        One of the more heinous accusations was that all badged federal agents were out of the building at the time of the bombing.

        Tell that to the familes of these people:

        Cynthia Lynn (Campbell) Brown, 26, special agent, Secret Service

        Rona Linn Chaffey, 35, Oklahoma City Cleveland County sherriff's secretary, assigned to DEA

        Carroll June "Chip" Fields, 48, Guthrie, Drug Enforcement Administration

        Mickey Bryant Maroney, 50, Oklahoma City, special agent, Secret Service

        Kenneth Glenn McCullough, 36, Edmond, special agent, Drug Enforcement Administration

        Alan Gerald Whicher, 40, Oklahoma City, assistant special agent in charge, Secret Service

        Conspiracists love to point to the fact that no ATF employees died.  They fail to say that less than 1/3 of the building was destroyed in the blast.  The ATF offices were towards the rear of the building, where there was no damage.

        Conspiracists love to say that the damage could not have possibly been caused by one bomb or just by a truck loaded with fertilizer.  They're right.  Most of the damage is caused by building collapse AFTER the bomb detonates.  The bomb sets off a domino effect.  A good explanation can be found here:

        http://www.wai.com/AppliedScience/Blast/blast-okcity.html

        I bring all this up because "1" ratings are not enough.  It's like the judge sustaining the objection of the defense attorney.  The rumor flies and someone of soft mind or great curiousity explores it to see if its founded.  And they'll come upon web site after web site full of this trash.

        Now what this has to do with Ken Starr leaking to the press, I have no idea.

        •  it's a typical republican diversion (none)
          when one of their ilk decides liddy and limbaugh are right and accepts their goading to do something about it and goes out and slaughters a bunch of feds- they try to blame it on the democrats.
          •  That's a big Dem failing isn't it (none)
            Ward Churchill says something extreme, and everyone from the furthest left to the most conservative warhawk Dem gets hit with a broad-brush smear by the Republicans.  A right-wing Republican that would fit right in to the current mainstream of the republican party blows a building to smithereens, and there is silence.  

            This act was a direct outcome of the Republican mantra that government is the problem.  They own that explosion and those deaths.  In fact, I saw Limbaugh defend McVeigh on his short lived tv show.  His audience looked pretty uncomfortable, but they own the attack too.  

            •  how could limbaugh not defend mcveigh? (none)
              every ignorant thing timmy mcv believed was also being uttered by limbaugh on a daily basis- that clinton and the big government were going to take their guns and then give the country over to the united nations and let gay black men rape them.
        •  Ummm, you missed a big one (none)
          No FBI personnel were killed even though the FBI offices were pretty much at ground zero.  That's just a little uncanny, wouldn't you say?

          Am I allowed to shamelessly plug my little blog?

          by ChuckLin on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 03:17:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Friend of mine (none)
            has a very close relative that works in the IRS office there. This relative (and many co-workers)
            were "home sick" that day.  My friend was very worried until the news got back to us.  Me, my
            tin hat got a bit o' use.

            It's the Neo-conjob, stupid.

            by nargel on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 08:13:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You don't have to equate the two. (3.00)
          Suspecting official involvement in the OKC bombing doesn't have to go hand-in-hand with assuming efforts were made to spare officials inside the building.

          In his book about the Franklin Cover-Up, former State Senator John DeCamp represented some of the victims of OKC's families in a civil suit designed to sue whoever was found responsible. He retained one of the best firms in the country to examine the building's wreckage and determine whether or not McVeigh's fertilizer bomb could have caused the destruction and collapse of the building. Their preliminary report indicated a bomb of that size would have to be expertly placed in order to cause that type of destruction. DeCamp was asked by McVeigh's attorneys to let the company go so that they could retain them. Deferring to the other legal team, DeCamp released them. The other legal team then cited financial difficulties to justify their not, in turn, retaining the firm. The building site was demolished before DeCamp could again retain the firm, and it was done over the weekend when he could not file any kind of stay to prevent the demolition. The wreckage of OKC was never properly examined. You can read about this in the later chapters of DeCamp's book.

          Many of the examples you cite are merely speculation. The fact the building was demolished before it could be properly examined by qualified experts is fact. I would never dishonor the memory of the victims of that day by suggesting their complicity, but I feel it does dishonor them to ignore the fact that a proper investigation was not conducted.

          "So much thinking in our society has been replaced by following. I know God didn't make us for that." --Keith Olbermann

          by Irony on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 04:26:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ammonium nitrate (none)
        I refer you to this website:

        http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/metropolitan/txcity/main.html

        When the barge blew up (ammonium nitrate) it blew a plane out of the air, and flung a 1.5 ton anchor two miles...

        ...................... "My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted." Steven Wright

        by wrights on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 08:39:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  9/11 happened under bush's watch, freep (none)
        post that over there and see how long they let it stay up.
    •  One thought (none)
      With the split between the parties, it doesn't hurt to have an intermediary. If Hillary does make a bid for the big house, then how better to diffuse Republican rancor than many photo-ops with #41.

      utahgirl

      •  Yup. (none)
        You've got it.

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

        Lots of people are noticing "strange"things like this Starr dig.

        It's suddenly open season on crooked Republicans in the "liberal" media.

        I'm telling you...the fix is in.

        Butch is out.

        BOTH sides agree. The CENTER of both sides, anyway.

        Maybe not impeached...but diminished to near helplessness.

        Too many fuck-ups from BushCo, Too many powerful enemies.

        Bad for business.

        So "business"...the corporate media...begin to take BushCo down.

        A notch first, and if BushCo doesn't begin to behave, begin to toe the line...a mile.

        watch.

        AG

        •  You're right...... (none)
          the people who really rule this shit, the major U.S. corporations, are sick of the Bush Administrations fuck-ups. They had to ride with him through 2004 because that would be like not continueing to bet the turn after you allready bet the flop (poker analogy), but now it's the river and it's either all-in or fold on this Administration, and corporations didn't get where they are today by making the stupid call.

          Hillary will win in 08' its what everyone, even Fox news wants, so she will win. Mark my words, don't discount the power of celebrity in this country. Deibold will even make sure of it.

          Hey better then Jeb or Frist atleast.

          •  The big boys already scored big (none)
            Bankruptcy reform
            Class action.

            And they got all that in Q1.

            Now they are realizing that they have 15 more fiscal quarters with this nutjob.

            It would be funny, if not for the fact that we were along for the ride.

            I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

            by Volvo Liberal on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 07:46:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe this (none)
      He wants to be nice to Repugs, so they won't be mean to Hillary, so she can be President?
      •  Or think what he might be finding out (none)
        over the late night brandy after a day of sunami relief with Poppy.

        ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

        by bibble on Thu Jun 02, 2005 at 07:03:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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