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  •  So a big fat nothing. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jkp, FogCityJohn

    What a watered down piece of pablum.  

    Does nothing to stop straw sales, does nothing to stop the flow of street guns from "burglaries".  

    Universal background checks accomplishes NOTHING.  

    This is all kabuki.  NRA was all for background checks not too long ago, but comes out hard against it now - knowing that something would have to be passed, when they're totally fine with background checks because they are valueless.  

    Just like Heritage writing Romneycare which became Obamacare - then the GOP rants and raves against it, but in the end get a conservative bill framed as a far left one, moving the supposed center further to the far right.  

    The country is fucked.

    Keystone XL Pipeline - Canada gets the money, Asia gets the oil, America gets the toxic refinery pollution and potential for a pipeline leak ecological disaster.

    by Jacoby Jonze on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 11:12:38 AM PST

    •  While this legislation,... (15+ / 0-)

      ...if it is passed the way the four senators appear to be headed, will have some big holes in it, none of the gun-control groups, some of which have been working on increasing restrictions on access to guns for two decades or more, agree that that universal background checks are worthless. For one thing, gun trafficking laws, like the one introduced 10 days ago, are useless without background checks.

      One possibly doable thing to stiffen the background check expansion is to reinstate the 90-day hold on NICS checks. In truth, these should be permanently held. But opposition to a registry, which will not clear the Senate, much less the House, in their current configurations, means a permanent hold is out of the question for now.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 11:24:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Taking registration off the table is like taking (0+ / 0-)

        single payer off the table from the get-go.   If nothing else use it as a negotiating point.  Dems always seem to start from what they think they might be able to get while the GOP starts at their furthest right - we will give you nothing.  

        Background checks are worthless because if you sell your gun in a straw sale it is impossible to catch because you never have to prove you still have the gun.  

        Something like 90% of street guns start off as legally purchased ones.  This does ZERO to stop guns from getting to the street.  It's a big fat nothing.  

        And simply increasing the penalty for having an illegal gun is just putting more low level broke ass inner city people in jail while the NRA and their Gun Companies keep using these same folks to gin up fears in suburban folks - and does nothing to track down and incarcerate the gun owners straw selling guns onto the street or being so bloody reckless with theirs not to properly secure them in their homes.

        Keystone XL Pipeline - Canada gets the money, Asia gets the oil, America gets the toxic refinery pollution and potential for a pipeline leak ecological disaster.

        by Jacoby Jonze on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 11:39:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This group contains Republicans as well as ... (12+ / 0-)

          ...Democrats, so it's no surprise that they're negotiating toward something that's not as strong as many gun-control advocates would like it to be.

          But there will be time to amend whatever proposal they come up with. One amendment could be to seek a permanent hold on data acquired from NICS background checks. Since that will undoubtedly not pass, not even in the Senate, a follow-up amendment can be pushed to reinstate the 90-day hold of all NICS. That might pass. That's not perfect by a long shot, but a survey has shown that thousands of gun-buyers would be blocked from legal purchases if the 90-day hold were in place.

          Statistics prove you're wrong about background checks doing "nothing." Some 1.9 million people have been stopped from buying guns legally because of them. Yes, many of them no doubt acquired firearms in other ways subsequently. And, as long as there are guns in private hands, this will always be the case.

          Are checks enough? Of course not. No single piece of legislation is going to greatly reduce gun violence by itself.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:01:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd rather try for something with actual teeth (0+ / 0-)

            and have it blocked - because then the GOP, the NRA, and the Dems who vote with them will own any and all coming murders and spree killing massacres and have to answer for them rather than passing this lame ass compromise that will do very little and then allow the GOP to say "well we worked with Democrats and passed a bi-partisan bill"  Any Democrat who votes for this bill is just giving the GOP and pro NRA Dems cover when there are more murders and spree killings.  

            Keystone XL Pipeline - Canada gets the money, Asia gets the oil, America gets the toxic refinery pollution and potential for a pipeline leak ecological disaster.

            by Jacoby Jonze on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:08:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So let me get this straight (14+ / 0-)

              Instead of a law that can reduce violent crime, now, you'd rather have more blood shed so you will have a political hammer to use to shame people into prohibition.

              Classy.

              ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
              My Blog
              My wife's woodblock prints

              by maxomai on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:10:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Some people believe the ends justify the means. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, maxomai

                If more babies have to die in order to have all guns banned, that's well within the agenda of some folks.  Collateral damage, don'tcha know?  Not that I'm saying that's where JJ here is coming from, mind you.  Not at all.  It's just that, well, you know....

              •  It depends (0+ / 0-)

                What if you thought that holding firm now would cost more lives in the short term, but potentially save more lives in the long run because it might bring about more ideal legislation faster by creating a vote record that could be used to get bad politicians out of office?

                •  Hell of a gamble, isn't it? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher

                  Right now you have the public opinion and votes to pass something good. You also have some fairly pissed off conservatives on the other side, who are ready to primary anyone who votes for universal background checks, let alone an AWB or magazine ban.

                  A year from now, you might not have the first, and the GOP might be too scared of the second to do anything even half as meaningful as we can get now.

                  Sure, two years from now, you might have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate and a Democratic majority in the House, both set on passing licensing, registration, and a host of other gun control measures. But I doubt it. And it only takes one special election to change that.

                  Basically, we should be learning the lessons from health care reform.

                  ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                  My Blog
                  My wife's woodblock prints

                  by maxomai on Sat Feb 16, 2013 at 08:14:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  It won't reduce anything. (0+ / 0-)

                It will just be a useless piece of legislation that will allow the pols to pretend that they took action.  

                The vast, vast majority of street guns are "acquired" from legal purchasers - this does zero in addressing that.  You don't see gangbangers going to gun shows to buy.  So all the inner city killings will keep happening, and Sandy Hook Shooter, the Aurora shooter, the Va Tech shooter, the Temple Shooter, the Arizona shooter all would have had the weapons they used with this now universal background proposal.  

                Keystone XL Pipeline - Canada gets the money, Asia gets the oil, America gets the toxic refinery pollution and potential for a pipeline leak ecological disaster.

                by Jacoby Jonze on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 02:18:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And you wonder why people fear (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  maxomai, PavePusher

                  confiscation? Really?

                •  Again (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher, KVoimakas

                  The vast, vast majority of street guns are "acquired" from legal purchasers - this does zero in addressing that.

                  These laws and regulations will give the BATF tools they need to clamp down on the flow of guns from legal purchasers to the black market. They don't need to have the gun registered. They just need to know that the gun was transferred without a background check. They can find that out by sitting nearby in a police van and recording the conversation. At that point, they don't even need intent, or to demonstrate that the seller knew that the buyer was ineligible. You just need to see that the sale happened sans background check. Boom.

                  That goes a long way towards shutting down the black market. And again - you don't need registration for any of that.

                  ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                  My Blog
                  My wife's woodblock prints

                  by maxomai on Sat Feb 16, 2013 at 08:05:24 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I think you are missing the strategy (14+ / 0-)

              background checks are the jewel in the crown in the sense that law enforement says it's the single change doing the most good. However, other parts of it, including straw man sales, mental health system fixes, high capacity magazine and, yes, AWB will be introduced separately.

              Most or all will be voted on.

              That's about as good as you can get.

              Doing it that way gets something passed. Once something gets passed the idea that 'nothing ever gets passed' is stymied and broken.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:13:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This: (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, WakeUpNeo, tytalus
                Doing it that way gets something passed. Once something gets passed the idea that 'nothing ever gets passed' is stymied and broken.
                The gun lobby continually bleats about "the thin end of the wedge" as a prime reason to introduce ANY change at all.

                They are correct in that assessment, because once it is established that change can happen, then it is inevitable that change WILL happen..

                Eventually we will get the change we need ... but it will take time and it will not happen at all if we hold out for too much at once.

                That does not mean that we give up fighting for more, it simply means that we have to know when we have got all we can for now.

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                Who is twigg?

                by twigg on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 04:00:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  "... and the Dems who vote with them will own... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx

              ...any and all coming murders and spree killing massacres and have to answer for them..."

              Can't wait for that next "spree killing" can you?

              As if we needed any more proof that the War on Drugs is stupid, a Kennedy is supporting it.

              by wishbone on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 01:20:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope. Just stating the very obvious. (0+ / 0-)

                There is one every 3-4 months now it seems.  And a background check wouldn't do a damn thing to prevent the next one.  

                Aurora, Wisconsin Temple, Sandy Hook, and that teen down in New Mexico that was planning to to shoot people at Wal-Mart after killing his whole family - that's four (off the top of my head) in the last 6-7 months is it not?

                Keystone XL Pipeline - Canada gets the money, Asia gets the oil, America gets the toxic refinery pollution and potential for a pipeline leak ecological disaster.

                by Jacoby Jonze on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 02:22:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  No, you may not use that broad brush. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock

              I am not responsible for the actions of criminals.

              Period.  End.  Fucking dot.

          •  of the 1.9 million denials I'd assume that most (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xxdr zombiexx, PavePusher

            were a glitch in the system. If you have a common name you can expect to have to appeal as someone with your name has a recent restraining order, different SS# doesn't help. There's a VAF (voluntary appeal file) which is fairly quick at catching obvious mistakes, other times things can get sorted out with a quick phone call. I've heard of many people being denied. I've never heard of a criminal trying to purchase a firearm, I'm sure they do, but I'd think the additional penalties disuade most.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:29:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I had a client with a common name that was (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock, high uintas, PavePusher

              turned down for an apartment because her name came up with a felony burglary charge.

              Middle names and DOB were different but the system wasn't catching that.

              I called various agencies and inquired about what to do and, of course, got a variety of answers. Mainly she needed to go to the police department and discuss it with them. Unsure if it ever got rectified.

              She's pretty sure she'd have remembered prison time....

              The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

              by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 01:28:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  single piece of legislation to greatly reduce (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas, PavePusher, KVoimakas

            gun violence

            Did legalizing booze reduce gun violence?

            Legalizing drugs, would go a long way because ~50% of gun crimes are tied to gangs & drugs

            Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

            by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 02:02:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Registration was always a non-starter (9+ / 0-)

          The 2A crowd regards registration as a first step to confiscation. If you think the assault weapons ban is seeing a bitter fight now, it's nothing compared to the fight you'd see after proposing federal registration of all firearms.

          And frankly, your argument is nonsense. The whole point of universal background checks is that it gives the BATF better, more effective tools to use against the very straw purchasers that put most of these guns into the black market. These rules are not going to stop the flow of guns into the black market altogether - after all, things "fall off of trucks" - but if properly written they should allow the BATF to shut down the 1% of FFLs that make the biggest contribution to the problem. Which means, we should see a huge reduction in black market firearms, and therefore of violent crimes committed with guns, over the coming decade.

          You simply don't need registration to give the BATF those tools.

          ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
          My Blog
          My wife's woodblock prints

          by maxomai on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:09:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  What is happening now is like (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades, Eric Nelson, twigg

          putting up a tent in the middle of a hurricane.

          A few poles have to go in the ground first, even though it will take a lot of work to attach the other parts and before there will be even minimal shelter.

          And a single tornado could come along and defeat all the efforts.

      •  I think 90 days is a reasonable compromise at (0+ / 0-)

        this point.

      •  Just don't get opposition to registration. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, twigg

        Gun owners have this delusional fear that if they have to register their guns, the guns will be confiscated.  It hasn't happened with cars or pets, but somehow it's going to happen with guns.

        Frankly, this is ridiculous.  As I've said before, I'm HIV+, and as a result I'm on a government registry of all known HIV-infected people.  But somehow I don't lie awake in bed at night terrified that the government is going to come and ship me off to some kind of quarantine for poz folks.  And given the kinds of proposals we saw back in the 1980s for doing just that, I would be far more justified in my fear than gun owners are in theirs.

        It's difficult for me to see this as anything other than simple paranoia.  I just thank God I'm not troubled by such absurd fears.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 02:25:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They're fearful because (0+ / 0-)

          people are clamoring to make ALL guns illegal now! Have you read Dkos lateñy on this subject? And a registry would make it easy because we all know the dems don't stop until the government has total control.

          •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

            I wasn't aware that the Democratic party actually behaves like the way we're depicted in right-wing talking points. "we all know the dems don't stop"...feh. You're sounding like a poor quality Democrat, sir.

            What some liberals are clamoring for, and what can actually be done, are two different things. Even the clamoring liberals understand that. At least, this one does.

            “Now, I can imagine the shocking headlines you’ll print tomorrow morning: 'More guns,' you’ll claim, 'are the NRA’s answer to everything!'" -- Wayne LaPierre

            by tytalus on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 05:30:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Great snark! nt (0+ / 0-)

            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

            by FogCityJohn on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 08:26:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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