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View Diary: Rising wages vs. Competitive wages (68 comments)

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  •  It makes sense (20+ / 0-)

    When we are closer to full employment at good living wages, people contribute more to the govt. in the form of taxes and more to the economy in the form of disposable income.

    The more wages are suppressed and the more that work is outsourced, the less money there is available to enter the economic stream thus further depressing the economy.  This is also why austerity has had such a tragic effect on the economies of the countries in which it has been imposed.

    Further, the three greatest contributors to the significant rise in the national debt have been the Bush tax cuts, the two unfunded wars, and the current despressed economy which is largely characterized by both unemployment and under employment.  If we get people back to work at full time, good paying jobs, then we have done much to solve the so-called "debt crisis."

    "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

    by gulfgal98 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:26:30 AM PST

    •  PS (13+ / 0-)

      Keep these diaries coming.  Your diaries are always very well sourced and equally well written.  Tipped and recommended, as always.

      "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

      by gulfgal98 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:28:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There Isn't a Nation Here. This is a Region, (8+ / 0-)

      a location for parts of the global economy. Economic efficiency is the goal, not anything related to groups of occupants here or there.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 08:33:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Understood (7+ / 0-)

        Globalism has destroyed national boundaries, and austerity continues to exaccerbate it.  However, govts. do have means by which to recover some of our economy lost to cheaper wages in third world countries.  But depressing wages here is not one of them. It is insane that many of the most profitable companies are not only not paying any taxes here but some are actually receiving tax rebates while our own citizens are struggling. Perhaps it is time to look at ways the govt. can recover some of the lost revenues from global corporations and promote jobs back here.

        "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

        by gulfgal98 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:35:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re (0+ / 0-)
          It is insane that many of the most profitable companies are not only not paying any taxes here but some are actually receiving tax rebates while our own citizens are struggling.
          All of their employees pay federal, state, and local taxes, do they not?

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:47:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You hit the nail on the head! An ordinary worker (7+ / 0-)

            pays, and does not get subsidized; a company pays nothing, destroys jobs and communities (and thus taxpayers) here and gets subsidized to do so, plus laws to turn what an ordinary person would find taxable income into non-taxable.

            You couldn't have said it better.


            We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

            by Jim P on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:26:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Huh (0+ / 0-)

              The corporation ultimately pays all the taxes, whether directly or indirectly.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:37:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Huh. The Corporation is One Person. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gjohnsit, gulfgal98, badger, elwior

                The employees are other persons. Those persons pay taxes (until their jobs are off-shored), but the Corporate Person pays diddly, and gets subsidies to kill of the taxpaying workers.

                If you want to say the employees have nothing at all to do with generating the money by which the Corporation pays them wages... well, you've created a startlingly original economic theory. But then one wonders why the Corporation bothers with employees at all since the money just magically appears in their accounts.


                We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

                by Jim P on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:43:13 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And then, what when robots replace workers, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lostinamerica

                  as is a trend endorsed recently by so many in the business community. They'll pay the robots nothing, and still the Corporations won't have to pay taxes?

                  Because...?


                  We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

                  by Jim P on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 12:44:45 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  The corporations and the employees are (6+ / 0-)

                different entities.
                   If you've ever had your wages cut while the companies profits went up then you would understand.

                ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                by gjohnsit on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:46:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Doesn't matter (0+ / 0-)

                  All money, from wages to taxes, comes from your local corporation. Without it you don't have a government, wages, education, health care, or anything.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 12:03:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ah!! I get it - employees are just leaches upon (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gjohnsit, Jim P, lostinamerica

                    the corporations because we expect to be paid for our labor.  It is with those wages we demand that taxes are paid, therefore the corporations are actually paying the taxes not us lowly employees.  The wages they pay us is in fact the tax they pay.

                    •  Re (0+ / 0-)

                      Employees aren't leeches. Why would you think I think that? You do a job, and are paid to do that job. It's fair and a good deal for both parties.

                      It is with those wages we demand that taxes are paid, therefore the corporations are actually paying the taxes not us lowly employees.
                      How much in taxes would you be able to pay without your "friendly" neighborhood corporation available? The answer is zero. The corporation is the source of all funds to a locality, whether it directly pays taxes or it pays salaries that are taxed.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:14:24 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So, we gotta do whatever the corps say to do or (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lostinamerica

                        die??  Accept wages that won't meet our needs??  Accept working conditions that would be harmful to our health??  Not able to move to better jobs because we owe company x for the 'loans' they gave us to shop in their company run grocery store, or care at their medical clinic??  That's a dictatorship of unelected organizations.  I'd rather go back to subsistence farming and barter than live in a 'company' town, cause their history isn't all that pretty.

                  •  Excuse me?!? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Azazello, Jim P

                    First of all, corporate employment does not equal total employment. Not even close. More people are employed in small business, large private businesses, or self-employed, than are employed by corporations.
                       So your statement by just that is false.

                     Secondly, even if your statement was anywhere close to being true (and it isn't), you would still be turning most economic theories about the source of wealth upon its head.
                       Basically you are embracing the most right-wing economic theories.

                    ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                    by gjohnsit on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 01:36:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MGross
                      First of all, corporate employment does not equal total employment. Not even close. More people are employed in small business, large private businesses, or self-employed, than are employed by corporations.
                      "Small" business is primarily restaurants, caterers, wedding services, etc that subsist off the presence of a large corporation in the area.

                      Your other points are true, but irrelevant. All that matters is: who is exporting goods and services out of your locality? The export business is the thing that drives everything. It might be, on occasion, someone self-employed (telecommuting is big), but at the end of the day, the export businesses (of whatever kind they are) are what drives your local economy. If they go away, your economy vanishes.

                      Secondly, even if your statement was anywhere close to being true (and it isn't), you would still be turning most economic theories about the source of wealth upon its head.
                      Uhh, how's that? Wealth is made by people who grow, mine, or manufacture something. Everything else is ancillary activity. For a small town, it's typically going to be 1-2 factories that power the whole thing. It's your export business that matters. Nothing else.

                      You can not grow an economy on health care, education, infrastructure spending, or any such activity. Those activities may be necessary, but they are support activities that help drive the real wealth creation: making things of value for which other people are willing to trade other items of value.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:22:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  That's insane. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gjohnsit, sunny skies

                    Whenever there are people there is government of some sort, whether or not there are corporations. Corporations are creations of the government, not the other way around. In the first years of this country there were only farmers and small businesses, corporations were created for specific projects and did not live forever. You may worship them as benevolent societies and the providers of all that is good,
                    I do not.

                    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                    by Azazello on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 01:44:04 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Azazello

                      You're being hung up on my use of the word "corporation". Maybe I should substitute "wealth generating entity". A farmer, machinist, all count.

                      What matters is that your export business is everything. That's what runs your town, keeps the lights on, food on the table, local government and schools running, etc.

                      Whether it's a big corporation or a farm (or farm collective), or a mine or what have you, it's the stuff that you export that matters. No export means no town.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:26:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  That sure is a viewpoint (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lostinamerica, gjohnsit

                    makes me wonder how humanity survived before the rise of the corporation. Note that I'm not asking for a value judgment on "how well" society ran or whether ultra-wealthy folks were "happier back then." Your statement, that without local corporations "you don't have...anything," is so utterly ridiculous that I am actually glad you made it.

                    Thanks for a great afternoon's entertainment. The dawn of history up through the Dutch East India Company thanks you too.

            •  Our governmental entities are all corporations. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elwior, side pocket

              Thus the membership has natural sympathies with private corporations. Not to mention that private corporations are creatures (by charter) of the public corporations.
              Because the members of the public corporations are precluded from engaging in certain actions (self-serving, power enhancing), they have grown accustomed to relying on the private corporations to do favors for them, including promoting their tenure in office.
              It is a dishonest stance and they need to be called on it. We hire them to work for us, for them to cater to cronies is corrupt.
              The Tea Party got that right. What they got wrong was in which direction the force field flows.

              We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

              by hannah on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 11:40:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  So we socialize the tax (0+ / 0-)

            but privatize the tax rebate now?

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