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View Diary: Walker drops bomb #2, this time on Wisconsin's private sector unions (165 comments)

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  •  You misread. That's my point. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Victor Ward, Sparhawk

    A state that voted for Obama, also voted for Walker. They decided a D was good for the nation, but not the state.   It is tough to argue after two elections that the state wasn't aware of Walker and made a decision to give him more time.   We may not like it.  But the voters were clear.   We can do better.

    "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

    by justmy2 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 05:14:18 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well Jesus H. Christ! (11+ / 0-)

      Just who are you blaming for people voting for Obama and Walker both?!  You're not speaking for me because I voted a STRAIGHT Democratic ticket this fall and so did a hell of a lot of other people.  How dare you lecture to people in this state who fought Walker and the Republican legislature tooth and nail; who pulled off one recall election after another---several of which we won!  Do you think it doesn't sting for us that despite ALL the effort to keep the State Senate under Democratic control that we lost it because there are assholes in this state who appear to have the brain cells of gnats?!

      As to my misread of your comment, who the hell are you to state that Democrats in this state haven't decided it's worth running their state?!  I can't force those who run the Dem Party in this state to do anything!  If you want to do some good and help us, send a letter or e-mail to Mike Tate, the Chair of the WI State Dem Party and tell HIM what he needs to do.  For your convenience, here's the link
      to his e-mail.  Have at it!

      "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

      by 3goldens on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 05:24:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am blaming a state of voters (4+ / 0-)

        that saw fit to vote for the labor supporting party where it mattered least, and the labor busters in their home state.

        That isn't blaming any individual.  I am sure people cared and put up a fight.  But clearly it wasn't enough.  The Democratic Party and Union Leadership made decisions that allowed Walker to be elected once, and confirmed.

        It is impossible to say the will of the people has not been met.  That will has consequences.  Maybe the state doesn't care.  But I do.  And when I tried to fight for not allowing Walker to set a beachhead, and national dems should be going all in in Wisconsin.  I was told by Wisconsinites that "we got this".   Probably not you...but overall, the strategy did not work.  

        Maybe, seeing the results is exactly what is needed to wake people up to the impact of state elections.

        "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

        by justmy2 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 05:36:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, even the people who put up a fight (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, congenitalefty

          are going to be seriously affected by this.  Saying they deserve it is the problem.

          •  Where did I say deserve? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward, AoT
            Sorry to be so blunt. I empathize, but this one is really what Wisconsin citizens voted for.

            "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

            by justmy2 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 06:00:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Right there is where you did. (3+ / 0-)

              pay attention to what you yourself are typing.  You even just quoted the incriminating line yourself right there.   You blame "Wisconsin citizens" for a thing that is only true of some Wisconsin citizens. Blaming the entire group of individuals for the actions of a large but not unanimous number of them is bigotry against those who are in the minority in that group.

              •  Deserve? (0+ / 0-)

                We have a different take.  I wouldn't say we all deserverd the Reagan years.  But that was the will of the people.

                Instead of being hurt by the truth, I suggest figuring out what went wrong and how to use Walkers tactics against him.  Complaining about how mean he is doesn't do a thing.   And it is also time to look at Wisconsin party leadership.   I say again, the state went for Obama.   What happened internally.   That is the issue.

                Wisconsin voted for Walker.   Wisconsin is being governed by Walker.  It really isn't some type if complex equation.  Don't want to be governed by Republicans, work to elect a Democrat.  And request national help when appropriate.  And push back on national when appropriate.  Republicans aren't scared of nationalizing an election, Democrats shouldn't be scared.  Tactics were bad.  I said t at the time.  Actually when it all started.  It makes it very easy to see the issue clearly.

                "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

                by justmy2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 04:22:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No (3+ / 0-)
                  We have a different take.  I wouldn't say we all deserverd the Reagan years.  But that was the will of the people.
                  Liar.  That was the will of some of the people.  That is the same error you make in blaming all of Wisconsin.  That is the crux of your error and it is why you get argument over this.  When you pretend local democrats weren't mobilized, you are lying.  In a very large way.  When you pretend the local democrats didn't ask for national help, you are lying.  They asked for, and did not get, national help from the party.  If you don't like it when people push back against what you are claiming there's an easy solution - don't lie about them in the first place.  Especially when those people you are lying about are part of this website and can read what you're falsely claiming about them.
                  •  Liar....interesting choice of words (0+ / 0-)

                    Sorry...will of the people is exactly what it is when you live in a democracy.  Adding the word some, may make you feel better, but it doesn't change a thing.

                    You are making the argument Republicans are making right now. Obama only got 51% so the people haven't spoken.  Nonsense.  If we are going to based policy on % of vote, well we are really screwed.

                    And creating strawmen won't help

                    When you pretend local democrats weren't mobilized, you are lying.  
                    You did not read that in anything I wrote. As a matter of fact, my point was that WAS THE PLAN.

                    You can be mad.  You should be. But as they say.  Truth hurts.

                    And when you say people asked for national help, it simply isn't true.  And I have provided the links.   Another example of a local person during the debate.

                    This is why we don't want national and out-of-state politicians to muck this up, so it's better that Obama stay out of it.
                    You can choose to be believe the record or your memory.

                    "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

                    by justmy2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:07:04 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Apparently the truth is hurting you (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Capt Crunch

                      so badly, justmy2, that you are "choosing to believe the record of your memory".  People in WI DID ask for national help.  It's the truth.  And the national Dems chose to step back from WI and to say nothing and do nothing.  If not for Ed Schultz, the WI situatio would never have been known at the national level.  If nothing else, MONEY from the national Dems would have helped, but it was left to the unions and the grassroots to do so and we could never match the outside money from billionaire conservatives that poured into this state.  People here have tried over and over again to explain the reality of the situation here and you have refused to listen to them because you have your own agenda.  You've made this diary about you and how you knew what needed to be done but no one listened to you and now, two YEARS after this battle was over, you've come out to even the score and make yourself feel better.  Shame on you.  What a petty, mean, vile thing you've done.  

                      "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

                      by 3goldens on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:40:08 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They asked for help when it was too late. (0+ / 0-)

                        I am not trying to settle any scores with anyone.  I have no need to.

                        I am not pointing out based on memory.  I have provided links and I went back and read the relevant diaries.

                        I do not have any doubt based on my recollection and the record, that from the protests through the petition drive to the early recall process...the entire them was from the outside -this is a state thing (AKA as an excuse for Obama to go back on his promise to support union in a collective bargaining fight) and inside unions and the party telling people over and over again that this is a local issue, and the President would hurt the cause.  I know because the diaries were full of pushback.

                        My intent isn't to hurt anyone's feelings.  It is to make the point that the idea that 1. the collective bargaining fight should be fought on a state by state level is dead wrong...and 2. regardless of my personal strategic beliefs or anyone else... the citizens of Wisconsin elected Scott Walker twice.  Twice.  In a state where the same electorate voted for Obama twice.   The people spoke, and Walker is doing not only what he said he would do, he is doing what people ALREADY SAW HIM DO.

                        I am not sure why that is so hard on people.  Instead of taking offense, I suggest taking action.  And start by making sure progressives and unions never "fall in line" again just because the WH "says so".

                        Again, that isn't about my feelings.  It is about the issues that have held all of us back from progress.

                        And I don't take you statement lightly.  I know you are well meaning.  So it is important that I responded, but I stand by my statements.   There was a strategic decision to make this grassroots. It didn't work.   And it is an important lesson to learn.

                        "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

                        by justmy2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 12:09:25 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  And btw-a lot of the push back from Wisconsin (0+ / 0-)

                        was based on the assumption the National participation in Feingolds election hurt Russ.  So there seemed to be a decision to try to keep the President and national Dems out of the picture.

                        "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

                        by justmy2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 12:26:55 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  In the Walker recall, it was demonstrated (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GeoffT, 3goldens

      by exit polls that a majority of voters simply did not believe in recalling governors for anything less than criminal violations.  Period.  It was something over 60% if I recall.

      And that was amongst those who voted.  And a percentage of those were Dems.

      •  70% (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote, 3goldens

        Exit poll; last question, "Do you think recall elections are appropriate:"

        60% "only for official misconduct" (i.e. when they've already been removed from office, rendering a recall moot).
        10% "never".

        What I find most interesting about the exit poll is who's not there: 150,000 typically reliable Dem voters who sat it out (34% of recall voters i.e. 850,000 voted for Barrett in 2010, but he got a hair over a million in that midterm disastrous-for-Dems election).  That is, within the bounds of error, Walker's entire margin in the recall.

        That is what an unanswered (for almost all but the last month), 6 month, $50 million campaign buys you.  Scaled up, it's as if 7 or 8 million Obama voters from 2008 were persuaded to stay home in 2012.

        Fake candidates nominated by the GOP for the recalls: 6 out of 7. Fake signatures on the recall petitions: 4 out of 1,860,283.

        by GeoffT on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 10:37:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The anti-recall ad campaign (5+ / 0-)

          was supremely effective, combined with the "it's working" claptrap.  I wrote about it last year... you can trace how the ads did their work by looking at the poll questions from the Marquette polls:

          Do you think the recall process should be changed to allow recalls only in the case of criminal wrongdoing, or should it be kept as it is currently, with no restrictions?

          Jan 19-22, 2012
          Allow only in cases of criminal wrongdoing          43%
          Kept as it is currently with no such restrictions   53%

          June 13-16, 2012
          Allow only in cases of criminal wrongdoing          50%
          Kept as it is currently with no such restrictions   44%

          If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          by AnnieJo on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 03:05:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The "it's working" claptrap (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens, AnnieJo

            Involved the preliminary, unverified, not-comparable-to-any-other-states-because-they-weren't-out-yet 2011 QCEW data.

            When that did come out for other states, Wisconsin was in 38th place (which surprised few who were paying attention), down from 11th in 2010 (and infamously for the 12 months up to June 2012 we're down to 42nd place now since the effects of the Doyle 2009-11 budget in the first 6 months of 2011 slipped out of the window).

            That's what always frustrated me the most about those ads: they took a completely awful and pathetic number reflective of abysmal economic leadership and touted them as the bee's knees on the basis that they weren't as apocalyptic as the CES data.

            11th to 38th and now 42nd is what I like to try to shove down the throats of the "it's working" crowd.

            Fake candidates nominated by the GOP for the recalls: 6 out of 7. Fake signatures on the recall petitions: 4 out of 1,860,283.

            by GeoffT on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:09:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Melissa Harris Perry would laugh at you - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens

      if you were lucky.

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