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View Diary: Updated x2 - CNBC/CNN put Tesla to the Test. NY Times Fails. (230 comments)

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  •  So then, you agree with me... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, Argyrios, MPociask, Quicklund, rb608

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 07:56:37 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Ummm. Speaking of bad math. $8000 doesn't (24+ / 0-)

      equal 24,000.  

      And the little cars that you're referring to are not really the equivilent of the Tesla.  It's more like a BMW.  And you're not going to find one of those that gets even close to 30 mpg.

      Why the hostility anyway?  I don't quite get why a discussion of Tesla would be turned into a silly "gotcha" post.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:35:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  First, I didn't say 24,000 I said "close to". (6+ / 0-)

        And the higher end battery replacement is currently 12K for a replacement. So if you want to be precise it would be (if everything works perfectly) some number greater then 16K and less then 30K depending on the model you get.

        I'm not hostile at all, nor am I playing "gotcha" (although you all may be playing that, I'm not sure but you all seem very defensive). But if bad math is needed to sell something I get suspicous. It puts it in the company of a flat tax and the lottery.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:46:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But where do you get these numbers? (9+ / 0-)

          Are these based on testing by engineers?

          Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

          by yet another liberal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:49:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no based on the warranty and replacement costs. (7+ / 0-)

            published by Tesla.

            Also not mentioned here is the $600/year service fee.

            Again, lots of good reasons to buy a "green" car. And if the Tesla S fits what some folks want, great! But who wants bad math to convince them it's somehow a cheaper solution?

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:54:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bad math? (15+ / 0-)

              Stop it.  A Tesla is a luxury car.  It's expensive.  I think people who buy that are well aware of that.

              Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

              by yet another liberal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:58:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  But why treat what you perceive to be "bad math" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              von Dutch

              as some sort of sneaky way to "sell" Tesla?  Why couldn't you just have posted a "but here are some additional expenses you didn't take into consideration"?  That's what's usually done when people want to provide information and have a discussion.  When people want to be argumentative, they state their position in the "gotcha" manner you did.  Which leads me to believe you have agenda other than just making sure people have all the facts.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:38:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not worried about it (6+ / 0-)

                he/she tried to hijack the thread.

                I didn't include the costs of a battery replacement because when I spoke to a rep from Tesla they told me that even though the warranty is for 100,000 or 8 years the batteries are expected to last 200,000 miles.   At that point, if you've had the car and driven it 200,000 miles, you've likely had it for 10-13 years unless you drive like I do (25,000 per year which would still work out to 8 years).  When that time comes you have to make a decision.  Do you pay $8,000-$12,000 for a new battery or do you buy a new car.  Its not an altogether different decision than a typical car owner faces when say their transmission goes.  Last year I spent over $6,000 in maintenance alone and I STILl have to replave my cat converter to teh tune of over $1,000.  With an EV you don't have those things.  So if I missed adding $600 maintenance every 15,000 miles it's because that STILL is less than what I'm paying to maintain my current car.  

                My estimates were never intended to be exact.  Just a back of the napkin type rough estimate to show that  the way we think of cost with a typical car is not the way we should be thinking with an EV car.  EV's will cost more up front but in the long run the overall cost is not all that different than a typical car.  I mean my estimates were if anything conservative considering the Tesla Model S is a luxury car.  If I had compared it to a similarly luxurious car then my original price for the car would likely be $30,000 to $40,000 with fuel costs on top.  Maintenance of luxury cars are even pricier.  So when you add it all up, the Model S ends up being a pretty good deal.  

                This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                by DisNoir36 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:53:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund

                  But if it makes you feel better about a purchase, you're welcome to your reality bubble. And I see there is another clique here that attacks anyone who challenges that bubble.

                  We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                  by i understand on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:02:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Nonsense that was no hijack (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  i understand

                  The comment about battery replacement costs was as on-topic as a comment can be.

                  You offer good logic here as to why battery replacement might not be needed. But it might. And to ignore this factor entirely, even after it is raised, is indeed bad math.

                  What's worse though is the possibility you'd not made this rebuttal comment at all. These sort of comments are productive. Don't blow off quality debate as a hijack. The ratio of crap:productive comments on the internet is far too high for that. We've got enough chaff so please do not deny us your wheat.

      •  My BMW 328i gets better than 30 mpg in actual use (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        i understand, NYFM

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 10:02:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your BMW 328i (0+ / 0-)

          also probably cost you brand new between $40,000-$55,000 depending on the model.  

          Now add in fuel costs and maintenance.

          This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

          by DisNoir36 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:56:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  All vehicles have maintenance costs (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            earicicle

            This constant assumption that there'll be no maintenance issues on an electric car get tedious. There's still a lot of moving parts, there's still brakes, suspension, tires, lighting etc. There's also some pretty sophisticated software and lots of processors, do you think those won't require any maintenance?

            Bottom line, it's still a car, and it's going to require maintenance. Will it require less maintenance? Certainly. But to say that these things are zero-maintenance, hassle-free is wishful thinking at best.

            I've seen this sort of thing a lot with the EV community. It's like no EV company can do any wrong. No matter how shitty that company's product is (Zero and Coda) they're still treated like they're the best thing ever.

            You need a license to drive, a license to run a business, but any idiot can buy a gun.

            by Hannibal on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:27:26 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure they do (0+ / 0-)

              but you won't be changing oil filters, spark plugs, belts, cat converters, exhaust systems, alternators and so on.  

              There are far LESS moving parts in the Tesla than your standard IC car.  Outside of tires, brakes, air filters and certain fluids to keep those parts moving smoothly.  So it's obvious that maintenance will be significantly less.  Especially when you consider that you only have to go for maintenance every 15,000 miles as opposed to every 2,500-5,000 miles.  

              This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

              by DisNoir36 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 01:28:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Tesla has 15k mile maintenance intervals? (0+ / 0-)

                And you actually think that's low? That's on par with modern Ducatis, which aren't exactly known for being low maintenance.

                You need a license to drive, a license to run a business, but any idiot can buy a gun.

                by Hannibal on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:41:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  My read on all of this... (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MPociask, Ian S, IL clb, Hannibal, sea note, NYFM

        You are paying a LOT of money for a car that leaves you in a constant state of calculations and continual worry.  The biggest concern, at least at the moment, is making it to one of the very limited number of charging stations so you can refuel.

        And while 45 minutes of recharge time may be fine if you time your stop to get a meal, it still adds substantially to the overall trip time.

        It is not that I am unsympathetic to the strong need for a fleet of reliable electric vehicles, but right now, we're on the cutting edge and the buyers are early adapters, willing to deal with the uncertainties of charging locations, traffic conditions and constant calculations.

        I was and am an early Prius buyer.  I still have my original from 2004 with about 90K of miles on it and it runs great.  As I remarked to my partner last night while we watched news stories about the recent run up in gas prices.....whatever we buy next time, great gas mileage is going to be a key concern because this problem is only going to get worse.  

        As technology advances, I do think electric cars will build market share, but I also suspect they will more often be used as the second car in two car households, and one devoted more to the large volume of "in town" driving and/or shorter daily commutes most of us do.

        Free markets would be a great idea, if markets were actually free.

        by dweb8231 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 04:44:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't say constant worry. (6+ / 0-)

          Day to day, you'll wake up at full charge for your daily commute. As long as it's under 100 miles each way, you're fine, with a pretty large buffer. Never needing to refuel is nice.

          The only time you need even minimal planning is on long road trips.

        •  Because you never ran out of gas? (10+ / 0-)

          I have.  Not fun.  

          That's the point.  Running out of juice is no different than running out of gas.

          The only difference right now is that the infrastructure is not fully in place but it is coming online pretty rapidly.  

          I think someone who buys an EV  will have to be organized and figure out a routine.  Charge at night, find charging stations near an eatery for lunch and so on.  But in a few years the infrastructure will be in place and then there won't be any excuses.  

          This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

          by DisNoir36 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:59:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

            20 minutes later my Dad came and gave me a gallon.

            No not fun, but not catastrophic for Gasoline, just kinda slowly the pedal stops doing much of anything.

          •  I would beg to differ (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nextstep, Quicklund, NYFM

            There is a big difference.  If I run out of gas, I call someone and they can bring a gas can with a couple gallons of gas.  If I run out of juice, who do i call and say "Can you bring me a couple kilowatts of electricity (or kw/ah or whatever).  Although I could always call a friend with a portable generator or a tow truck...

            ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

            by geekydee on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:34:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You've just designed the 2015 tow trucks (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cazcee

              Soon every one will be built with a short-range jucifier.

            •  When EV's are more prevalent, I can see that AAA (0+ / 0-)

              service trucks will have on board a battery booster that will get you to the nearest charging station.

              Life may select the picture, but you choose the frame.

              by sea note on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:40:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I wonder what it would cost (0+ / 0-)

                for these cars to come equipped with an emergency battery with just enough juice to either get it off the freeway or to a charging station. It might require a electronic switch up front or a manual connection to take over the electronics of the car from the main power source.

                Retaining it's power might be done through solar or other means. The goal would be that the drive would only have to use it when it was needed and not have to charge it frequently as batteries that aren't use tend to lose their charge. If they charge overnight then maybe a portion of that goes to the emergency battery.

                Some would say why would we need it in the first place. Because electronic calculations of mileage remaining are only as good as the software, the battery, the monitoring of road conditions and traffic plus time between recharges.

                The Telsa may be close to dead accurate as possible but at that price point it's not going to sell nearly as many as one in the $15,000 range that are being planned now.

                It would be the battery equivalent of the small spare tire that gets about 50 miles.

                That might be a profitable third party add-on if enough cars make it on the road and the manufacturers agree to a  universal interface with the emergency battery as an option or leaving the interface and the space around it easy for a third party battery to hook up to it. I don't know if they have it right now. But I do know the Leafs and at least one other car was recently rated as having the worse resale value. Range anxiety , like anything new is going to keep people away from buying e-cars unless of course Apple makes one.  

                Hey....137B in cash. My guess is they'll wait until it's at 200B and build a worldwide wireless carrier of their own with the latest and greatest equipment since the adaptation of smart phones and pads are limited by the unreal cost of the monthly bills that go with them and the credit rating of the person buying it.  But in the interim, they could use 50B or so to build a small car company and do a iCar. All electric, all wireless, white or Black, sleek as hell. The Apple logo on the front grill.

                 

            •  One other wrinkle.....the plug (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              geekydee

              I think electric car manufacturers are working together on a common design, but one issue is trying to enable as rapid a charge as possible and that means big cables and special plug designs to handle the load.  Whether it is a special tow truck design or some other such, the bottom line is that unless you can find a car recharging plug, you could be facing a challenge.

              Yes...cars can run out of gas, but if you suddenly need to start looking for a gas station, you've got a lot better chance of finding one than a charging station.

              Free markets would be a great idea, if markets were actually free.

              by dweb8231 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 01:29:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You KNOW there will be (0+ / 0-)

              People starting businesses to do just that, if not already started - cruise around helping people who ran out of juice.

              Seriously, this is really a non-issue.

              Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 05:55:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I've never run out of gas. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            happymisanthropy, NYFM

            NEVER. And I've been driving for a LOT of years.

            Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

            by earicicle on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:32:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  and the guys that owned (3+ / 0-)

          the first internal combustion engine cars faced similar issues, plus in some places, being fined for scaring the horses.  The technology, as far as practical road experience, is in its infancy.   Similar changes over time in what EVs can do should be forthcoming, just as power, range and features of IC cars changed.

          The Tesla really isn't yet a touring car, a long distance ride.  It can be done, but it doesn't feature the convenience of driving an IC car.   But over time, that will probably change.  No one right now who needs to make plus 100 mile trips routinely probably wants to own an EV to make those trips.

          I spent two years in Chicago a good long while back.  In all the time I lived there, I made one trip out of the city by car that went over 100 miles.  I could have used an EV with little or no inconvenience if they had existed back then.  

      •  What about (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MPociask, Quicklund

        VW Passat TDI?  $25-30k.  EPA says 43 Mpg but several folks I know who own it says nope - they get better (and these aren't hyper-miler types).  I get 44 mpg  on mixed highway/city driving on my 99 Jetta (just turned 200k yay!)

        We are seriously considering a Passat TDI (not to replace my Jetta mind you) in the near future as soon as I can make room for payments on a $25 k car.  I would LOVE a Tesla S but I need the price to be a good deal lower - so I am rooting for great sales that will help the technology spread!

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:12:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm giving some serious thought to the new (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldmanriver, newfie

          Ford - Fusion is it? hybrid.  It's getting rave reviews and with the $4,000 tax credit, will be around $30,000 with all the bells and whistles I want.  It's rated for 47 mpg.

          Right now I'm driving a 2003 Jaguar X type with nearly 200,000 miles, which they don't make anymore (if they did, I have to admit I'd be buy it again, regardless of the 25 or 26 mpg).  I'm having a dickens of a time finding anything even brand new I'd rather drive than it and have spent literally years looking.  I refuse to consider anything that gets less than 30 mpg, yet want it to be fun to drive and nice looking.  There's really not much out there, I've found.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 05:47:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Be careful with the MPG for the Fusion and CMax (0+ / 0-)

            There's a significant portion of owners (and testers like Consumer Reports, etc) that are only averaging between 37 and 39 MPG in both no matter how carefully they try to drive.  My wife was considering the Fusion Hybrid but we'll wait a bit to see how the controversy shakes out.

            If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin. --- Charles Darwin

            by coracii on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:37:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have heard that. (0+ / 0-)

              And I have heard the exact opposite for the VW TDI.

              "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

              by newfie on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 01:02:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for letting me know that. I won't (0+ / 0-)

              be doing anything until spring at least, maybe longer.  I've spent so much time online looking at cars, trying to find something sporty but comfortable and with enough room for dogs and lugguge when traveling, but getting decent milage.  I actually just hit upon this one reading Edmund's and love the looks of it, it sounds like it has the space I need and has some of the little luxuries I like and meets my  milage requirement plus some.  I'll stay on top of the milage thing, though, before I jump into it.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 02:03:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Ford Fusion? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gustynpip, radical simplicity

            um, yeah.  I have a 2012 and I love it, although do NOT believe the mileage claims.  my overall mieage at this point is 31.4 and has dropped over the winter.  Things to think aboutconventional heater uses engine heat, so engins until warmed u[p for heat.  Yeah, crazy ain't it?  My sticker said 42 city/34 highway, but if I take short trips (~130 mi.), I get around 35-38 mpg, and if I keep the heat off, I can make 39 on in-town trips with out hills.  NOTE:  Hills will kill the mileage!  

            But, on the pro side, I love the heated leather seats, the lighting package, in-mirror backup camera (only have Sync, not the Touch console)), the room and creature comforts and the fact I can reach all the controls and SEE them (unlike the Prius V I looked at).  I have a friend with a Mercedes S-something or other, and he liked it, so I figure it ain't all bad  :)

            ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

            by geekydee on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:46:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Boy do I miss heated leather seats! (0+ / 0-)

              Though, reading your comment, I'm glad I chose a different car - we were considering the Fusion, among others. It would have bugged me to no end to have gone backwards on mileage. I had gotten down to 39 mpg in the old, old, old civic hybrid, and between the wear and tear of a quarter million miles, through a decade of VT mud seasons and salty winters, and needing a little of everything in order to pass inspection, we reached the "makes more sense to buy a car" stage.

              Luckily, the new one (prius c) is averaging 49 mpg, despite the really cold weather, winter formula gas, and studded snow tires on steel (nominally pothole resistant) rims.

        •  I Love My Jetta TDI Sportwagen! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          newfie

          40+ mpg...and it can go fast.  ;)  It can haul a lot of dogs, too.

          •  That was/is a consideration. (0+ / 0-)

            I won't give up my 99 Jetta TDI until it gives up.  I am looking for 300k (really 400k but don't tell my wife).

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 01:03:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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