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View Diary: Updated x2 - CNBC/CNN put Tesla to the Test. NY Times Fails. (230 comments)

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  •  warmer (7+ / 0-)

    cnn report was done on a much warmer day. temperature affects battery life.

    Obama 2012...going to win it with our support!!!

    by mattinjersey on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:42:05 PM PST

    •  Cold weather reduces the battery's output (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alumbrados, Shotput8, duhban

      And too high of heat damages it (reduces its life).

      Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

      by yet another liberal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 08:48:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And that's what Broder's report emphasized (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NYFM, Shotput8, indefinitelee, sangreal, Ian S

      Musk and his backers, and the pro-EV crowd here, emphasize the imprecision in Broder's report on his trip to the charger in Milford.  He wasn't  hypermiling or doing a great job of conserving energy; the distance between superchargers was marginal.

      But the real fun part of his review was the part where he ran out of juice.  This occurred because the temperature fell to 10F and lost more than half its charge just parked overnight.  He made it to a Level 2 charger and gave it an hour, which only added 5% to the very cold battery.  Tesla's instructions to "condition" it didn't work, so the battery didn't get back its charge (which was sort of still there, just frozen).

      Batteries just don't like the cold.  That's one reason why a hybrid (Volt, Prius, etc.) is more practical.

      •  I always leave for a 60 mile trip (8+ / 0-)

        When the display estimates I can go 30!!!!

        Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

        by yet another liberal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 09:06:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why not? (0+ / 0-)

          Elon claims the car will go thru "heroic efforts" to stay alive. ;)

          We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

          by i understand on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 09:19:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Probably (7+ / 0-)

            Because I don't care if somebody said something like that.  I'd read the guage instead of driving off like a moron.

            Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

            by yet another liberal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 09:31:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It did... (5+ / 0-)

            Broder travelled more than 55 miles on a charge that told him he'd make it 31 miles.  I'd say that the car over-performed and the driver was an idiot.

            If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin. --- Charles Darwin

            by coracii on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 07:45:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Tesla also told him... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              K S LaVida

              The range would come back after the battery warmed up. That communication was not disputed by Tesla.

              Hard to say the car "over-performed" as you put it or "heroic" as Elon put it when it's just recovering capacity it lost by sitting overnight.

              I'd say it's muddy, and with Elon spinning at least as much as the reporter I'll side with the ombudsman's reasonable interpretation.

              We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

              by i understand on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 08:39:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're conflating a reporter's duty ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MJ via Chicago

                ... to report the exact truth with that of a salesman's? Broder should never work in the industry again. That Musk guy will probably be worth millions some day.

                What I was waiting to find out in this story was whether there was remote access or stored access to the driving/electrical data unknown to the reporter. It now seems that that was the case. Broder had no knowledge that his every move was monitored. I will await additional evidence, but what you do when nobody's looking is who you are.

                I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

                by Tortmaster on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:30:17 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "Spinning at least as much" (2+ / 0-)

                Really.

                You had me fooled upthread. I thought you were a fair-minded poster who simply caught a math error.

                Now I see you are also an evangelical. Remember, that's not a dirty word.

                •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

                  "heroic efforts to stay alive", please. And you should read his take on the ombudsman's report.

                  I have no idea why my honest reading of these stories makes me an evangelical against EVs. I'm not, and frankly I'm currently shopping for a hybrid (although the diesel powered Jetta is in the running). The only thing I'm evangelical about is speaking out when I see others trying to pull the wool over folks eyes. And all of these stories and positions share that in spades.

                  We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                  by i understand on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 11:18:14 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "heroic efforts to stay alive", please -what? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    radical simplicity

                    I've read every main article that's come out. I don't know what this sentence fragment is supposed to prove.

                    One one had we have repeated disingenuity by the NYT writer.

                    On the other we have a company owner pissed off and who  made the mistake of using the word "faked". Well that word goes to state of mind and that is something that cannot be proved. So he should have used the word disingenuous instead. That can be proven and is in ample evidence in the original NYT article,

                    To state Mr Musk is spinning "at least as much" is worse than a claim of false equivalency, because false equivalency is your best-case scenario. According to you, the odds are Telsa motors is more at fault than Mr Broder.

                    So as I said, I do not see your writings as coming from a genuine unbiased POV.

          •  Because I am not an idiot. (0+ / 0-)

            Next question?

        •  It took an hour to get that much in (0+ / 0-)

          The battery wasn't taking a charge well. He spent an hour at the Norwich charge point.  The only warm place to sit was a nearby smoker's breakfast club -- a sort of diner for cigarette fiends where you need to buy membership because smoking in restaurants (pubilc accommodations) isn't allowed but smoking in private clubs is.

          An hour of either that or sitting outside in 10F weather would be more than enough for anyone.

      •  He could have (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sychotic1, Quicklund

        charged more fully at Milford the night before the charge drop.
        He was not leaving himself much leeway even if the charge had not been lost over night.

        If you aren't outraged, you are an idiot

        by indefinitelee on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 09:47:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hybrids are more practical for now (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban, Quicklund, NYFM

        But in the future when it's the gas stations that will be "hybrid" selling dino-juice as well as electrons, a cheaper Leaf will dominate - especially as the price of gas goes ever higher.

        But we have to get from here to there.  Hybrids just make gas less needed, but still necessary - I should know, my Prius gets 50-55 mpg (rain&cold makes things a bit slower), but my 300+ mi/wk commute still means I visit the gas station every 1.5 weeks or so.

        Zero emissions is a real goal, and it's been met by cars like the Leaf, TeslaS and (for smaller ranges) the Volt.

        --
        Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting

        by sacrelicious on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 10:41:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Zero emissions depends on the state. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Deward Hastings, K S LaVida

          If you live in a state that mines coal, chances are your electricity has a serious coal component.  The emissions take place, just at a smokestack instead of at your tailpipe.  

          "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

          by Yamaneko2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 01:01:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Right, because there are ZERO emissions in oil (7+ / 0-)

            production.  Exploring, drilling, transporting, refining, further transporting, and pumping/selling all take place without a single drop of oil burnt or a single electron fired.  Let's not even get into the tremendous amount of emissions produced by having to maintain a ginormous army and navy and air force to patrol the shipping lanes so the oil keeps flowing.

            I really am getting sick of this coal-fired electricity nonsense.  It's an oil industry talking point, and those idiots don't even realize it applies right back to them. Every gas station in the states that use coal is also burning electricity all day, every day.  

          •  Here is the deal, if we can centralize (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            otto, MPociask, SLKRR, Quicklund, sacrelicious

            our energy needs to one mode (electrical system) to the extent we can green that single mode, the entire system will be greened.  Going electric is the first step in greening.

            "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

            by Sychotic1 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 03:56:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  A pure-EV allows me to go off-grid (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radical simplicity

            And setup my own solar installation to power my house and car.

            You cannot do that with a gas car. At all.

            Plus, I would posit that the EROEI and pollution output of coal power+transmission+zero-emmissions is still better than the oil extraction (and the military force to force other countries to do that), refining, transport, storage and subsequent burning in a terribly inefficent small motor.

            Did you know that gas cars (aside from hybrids like the Prius) still have emissions while turned off?  It's called evaporative emission.

            If you want to run the numbers, I would bet you EVs still win.

            --
            Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting

            by sacrelicious on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 10:26:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Even using coal-fired electricity (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            splashy

            An electric car is cleaner than most of the internal combustion engine cars on the road in the US. The electric motor is much, much better at transforming power into motion (whereas an internal combustion engine turns most of the power from gasoline into heat, a portion of which is used to create motion).

            Electric vehicle CO2

            To summarize the linked article:

            If

            Your current car gets 33 mpg or better,

            AND

            You live in the worst region in the country for CO2-producing electric utilities (basically: Colorado), then an EV isn't going to be an improvement.

            In any other region of the country, an electric car is going to reduce CO2 vs an internal combustion car.

            And electric will reduce CO2 vs any car that gets below 33 mpg, even in the worst region in the entire country for dirty electric production.

            Note: the average mileage in American cars on the road today is: 21 mpg.
        •  I am considering the other half of hybrid (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sacrelicious

          the extended range gas vehicle.  It pretty much stays electric for shorter trips.

          "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

          by Sychotic1 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 at 03:55:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  that could be part of it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKSinSA, Quicklund

      that doesn't excuse Broder's poor note taking and questionable decesions

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Tue Feb 19, 2013 at 09:05:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not that much (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sponson, Quicklund

      Note: we live off-grid and drive a hybrid in VT. We don't always keep our house warm (our sole heat source is a woodstove). Yes, there's a slight reduction in output until the batteries warm up, which happens all by itself as power is drawn out. The drop is nothing like Broder tries to imply.

      The only issue we've had with the hybrids in cold has starting the car when it was negative 20F. Batteries don't like to be that cold, but internal combusion engine starter batteries get even more unhappy in those temps, too, so it's a wash.

      The mileage has been fairly consistent in both hybrids (this is our second) - within a few miles per gallon seasonally. But one important impact on hybrids is that winter formula gas in New England has a higher percentage of ethanol, and thus offers less energy output, so that's part of the few mpg decline over the winter. The studded snow tires and heavy steel rims don't help, either (except for climbing icy hills full of potholes). When you factor in both of those influences, the mileage drop due to cold weather from the batteries themselves is probably a maximum of 1 - 2 mpg.

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