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View Diary: They're finding ways to increase delivery of tar sands crude to gulf without xl pipeline (205 comments)

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  •  As McKibben et al are promoting with divestment, (8+ / 0-)

    the goal must be to isolate and demonize the fossil fuel industry, just as with South Africa and the tobacco industry. Make them pariah, force them operate in ever smaller spheres of activity...

    They will constantly try to circumvent our efforts, which is why the demonization is so important, so that even when they run, they can't hide.

    The Class, Terror and Climate Wars are indivisible and the short-term outcome will affect the planet for centuries. -WiA "When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill..." - PhilJD

    by Words In Action on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 12:21:02 PM PST

    •  true. we must use every weapon we have n/t (5+ / 0-)

      Macca's Meatless Monday

      by VL Baker on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 12:31:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "They're demons", he said, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emelyn

      while filling his tank with gasoline.

      Well I'm in that industry and I have to tell you I don't feel so very demonic.

      Isn't that what the The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition did? Demonize? Work to convince people that someone or some thing is demonic?

      Didn't work, by the way. Won't work in this instance, besides selling books and getting people paid for speeches. You have to have complete control over your audience, which you don't even have in places like Daily Kos. As for the more general population, you'll be accepted in the same fashion as the Westboro Baptist Church.

      My suggestion? Drop the theatrics and words like "demonize".

      It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

      by Fishgrease on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 01:30:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It certainly worked with Tabaco and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Words In Action

        S. Africa.

        And I don't see anyone with a better idea for how to deal with this.  The government sure as hell isn't moving fast enough on it, and if we trust it to them then we're screwed, ditto with your industry.

        •  Okay then, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emelyn

          please proceed.

          It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

          by Fishgrease on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 01:39:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You can stop smoking tobacco. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fishgrease

          It costs you nothing but a little enjoyment.

          People don't burn oil and natural gas for pleasure.  They burn it because it provides the energy that meets (directly or indirectly) all their basic needs.

        •  I think President Obama has a better idea (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emelyn

          for how to deal with this, everything considered. I think that, and the vast majority of Americans will agree, even once he's let KXL continue.

          We're talking hearts and minds, are we not?

          You're losing. If one of your goalposts is the successful demonization of me, then you're going to continue to lose, unless as I said before, you're paid for writing books or giving speeches.

          There are a lot of progressives in the fossil fuels business. There are a lot of progressives who are concerned about the environment, about climate change. We do what we can, when we can, as often as we can. In most cases we have reality on our side in that the very things that move our industry away from needless pollution and emissions, also save it money.

          Doesn't bother us to be called demons because we know you're just being silly. We know that is the way most rational people will see it.

          It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

          by Fishgrease on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:02:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  He has an idea that will fail (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Words In Action

            Because it continues to release carbon.  The Dems are a failure on this issue at the national level.  Even the plans that can't get passed aren't enough.

            And I don't see a single idea coming from the oil industry that's going to help, just more bullshit about how they're going to extract everything they can and how it's totally not their fault because people are consuming it.  I don't know what you do, but you're part of the problem if you're a party to pushing oil production.

            Doesn't bother us to be called demons because we know you're just being silly. We know that is the way most rational people will see it.
            Well, I'm not sure what United States you live in, but the one I live in most people aren't rational.  Have you seen the nonsense that's been going on?
            •  Yes. Yes we have. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fishgrease, AoT
              Have you seen the nonsense that's been going on?

              I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

              by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:14:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sorry, I have to ask. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              Do you USE oil? Gasoline? Natural gas? Diesel? At all? Ever?

              If so, where does one obtain such a huge tolerance for their own hypocrisy?

              It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

              by Fishgrease on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:17:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  As little as possible (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Fishgrease, 4Freedom

                The majority of electricity where I am is renewables. I Haven't had a car or eaten meat in about 10 years. I minimize my energy use as best I can. Obviously, no one is perfect and given the supply chain there's always going to be some carbon in there until we fix that, but whenever I've got a choice, no, I don't use those things.

                Also, I use them for bike tires and other goods like that.

                •  I also use as little as possible (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT, 4Freedom, emelyn

                  and I'll bet my personal carbon footprint is smaller than Bill McKibben's.

                  So maybe not such a demon.

                  But that's really what its all about isn't it? Maintaining our lifestyles and our economy while moving toward a more sustainable future?

                  I don't think we can. I think our lifestyles need to change drastically, immediately, and that our economy will need to slow down. I think people flying places on jet aircraft for a vacation is ridiculous. I think people driving places for a vacation is ridiculous and I think people driving and riding in motor vehicles to attend climate protests is doubly ridiculous.

                  It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

                  by Fishgrease on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:38:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  We are the alternatives? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, beach babe in fl

                That's the whole point. People would be happy to purchase wind and solar power if they had the option.

                The ONLY reason they don't have the option is that the OIL INDUSTRY has worked tirelessly for forty years to stop it from happening.

                Considering the impact on the planet, that IS demonic.

                The Class, Terror and Climate Wars are indivisible and the short-term outcome will affect the planet for centuries. -WiA "When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill..." - PhilJD

                by Words In Action on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 04:45:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  An industry that FUNDS DENIAL to prevent (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, beach babe in fl

        the conversion to renewable energy -- which the fossil fuel industry has done for 4 decades -- is demonic, in the face of the damage it has done and will continue to do to this planet.

        The Class, Terror and Climate Wars are indivisible and the short-term outcome will affect the planet for centuries. -WiA "When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill..." - PhilJD

        by Words In Action on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 04:49:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not disputing facts. (0+ / 0-)
          An industry that FUNDS DENIAL to prevent the conversion to renewable energy
          That's a fact. Some people and companies in the industry and yes, virtually all its trade groups have done that.

          Just questioning the theatrics, like "demonize". That's not a fact any more than calling them Orcs or Vampires. Nor is McKibben's use of "Oil Barrons". What is this? 1915?

          But you just go right ahead. I think you'd accomplish more if you stuck to the facts. Just what I thinks.

          You're not going to prevent KXL. Hope you have a plan B which goes beyond demonizing our Democrat, President of the United States.

          It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

          by Fishgrease on Sat Feb 23, 2013 at 08:12:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  There's also cutting their income (4+ / 0-)

      Investment makes it possible for them to keep growing. Cutting the money flow by divesting from their stocks will constrain their ability to fester metastasize continue growing.

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