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View Diary: They're finding ways to increase delivery of tar sands crude to gulf without xl pipeline (205 comments)

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  •  the problem with "reducing demand" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, 4Freedom

    is that this tar sand oil is being shipped to sea ports for export, not american or canadian domestic consumption. as americans cut their oil consumption - and we have! - the oil just shifts to markets abroad.

    so yes, we should definitely try to crash our consumption of fossil fuels of all sorts, but that alone will not solve the problem. for that we will need to do everything in our power to frustrate transportation of that oil to sea ports, and shut down  fossil fuels at the point of production as well.

    so both-and, not either-or.

    •  exactly, we must do both. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Macca's Meatless Monday

      by VL Baker on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 01:32:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  bbif, there's a lot more to know about Enbridge (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        beach babe in fl

        I added a comment downthread with some links, but you can just google "enbridge kalamazoo" to get the whole sordid story.

        Which is worse, a catastrophe or a disaster? That's what Enbridge as an alternative to KXL is.

        I'm a Democrat - I believe that government has a positive role to play in the lives of ordinary people.

        by 1BQ on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 05:25:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Only by everyone reducing demand do we get there (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      beach babe in fl

      oil is like water in that if flows downhill by the easiest path.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 03:53:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you have a plan for reducing demand (0+ / 0-)

        in China, where this oil is headed?

        Because otherwise we might as well give up.

        I mean, if we can't stop extractions or transportation and the government clearly isn't taking any significant action then we might as well give up.

        Unless you have some other suggestion. I've yet to hear anything but a carbon tax, which is so far from realistic it isn't even funny.

        •  easy! driving up the cost of coal and oil exports (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, beach babe in fl

          to china by blocking expansion of the infrastructure necessary to bring them to ocean shipping is the best way we have to reduce chinese demand for these commodities, especially given that their oil and coal resources are in the process of peaking just as their demand is increasing.

          eventually, china signing on to international agreements to reduce carbon in earnest, and the continued growth of renewable energy industries in china will also provide some pressure, but at the moment those are still a ways off.

        •  well ya, that's exactly what I've been saying for (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          beach babe in fl

          a long time. Calling someone else evil when all they are doing is giving us what we demand of them is crazy, and ya, we should give it up.

          When our consumption shrinks to that of China we'll be doing a lot better. China is building high speed rail everywhere, and we are doing nothing. They commute on electric bikes, we have Toyota gas guzzling hybrids so we can sleep with a clear conscience.

          Obama made the biggest change in fuel standards in more than a generation, maybe we could help out a little on the demand side.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 04:27:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So nothing except waiting for politicians to act (0+ / 0-)

            That's unacceptable to me.  That basically means inaction for the next four years, unless the Dems take back the house by some miracle in 2014, and maybe even longer.  There's no way to pressure the GOP into doing this stuff. They absolutely hate everyone who cares even a little bit about the environment and will never pass any sort of basic legislation.

            The government has failed and while there are a few bright points on that front at the state level, which we should definitely fight for, at the national level there isn't any more we can do about demand. Obama has done some good things on that, but there isn't much more he can do, and protests aren't going to change that. Pushing people to have a lower carbon foot print is the other side of that, but we should be doing that anyway. Localism is limited, we need broad scale action.

            •  I don't think I said wait for pols to act or do (0+ / 0-)

              nothing. Maybe you're responding to someone else's comment.

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 04:52:33 PM PST

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              •  No, but when I ask, as I have again and again (0+ / 0-)

                people who say that we shouldn't be focusing and acting against KXL what we should be focusing on the only substantive thing I hear is "carbon tax" and your comment was no different. I just want to know what action you think we can take on a national level. I keep asking this question and I keep getting no answer, and it's frustrating. I'm not singling you out, I just really want to know what the alternative is.

                •  I and many others have been saying and many have (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  beach babe in fl

                  been doing at a national level.

                  REDUCE DEMAND

                  I don't know any way of saying it simpler or with a description that covers all of the different ways to reduce better, carbon tax is only one of many ways. Increased cafe standards?????? Mass Transit, weatherization, power plant emissions, the list is absolutely endless. How about this.... buy less dogone stuff!

                  The difference is that it might actually require you to experience changes in the way you use energy. No more blaming big oil or the Chinese.

                  How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                  by ban nock on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 03:39:14 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's not an action, it's a goal (0+ / 0-)

                    And none all of it is based on government action, which is exactly what we can't rely on here. We can take personal actions and make choices, but those have a minuscule effect. Once people have stopped driving and stopped eating meat(and yes, I know, you eat elk and it isn't a problem, that isn't true of the vast majority of meat eaters) they want to do more and what you're saying is that they just need to wait for the politicians to get around to dealing with the problem. That's a tactic that's not only guaranteed to fail, but also guaranteed to encourage doom and gloom. And you are in fact saying we should wait for politicians to act.  Limiting supply can be effective as part of a larger plan.

                    The difference is that it might actually require you to experience changes in the way you use energy. No more blaming big oil or the Chinese.
                    Please don't lecture me about my energy usage. There is pretty much nothing I can do to significantly reduce my carbon footprint further at this point. I'm ready for the post carbon world. It can't get here soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

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