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View Diary: They're finding ways to increase delivery of tar sands crude to gulf without xl pipeline (205 comments)

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  •  You're wrong though (2+ / 0-)

    If this pipeline didn't matter then why would they be fighting so hard to get it built?

    •  How am I wrong? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emelyn

      What's the positive outcome if this pipeline get blocked?  The oil will still get to market, just on rolling pipelines like this one.  

      I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

      by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 01:40:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You didn't answer the question (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Voice from the Cave

        Because you can't.  If the pipeline is so useless to the oil companies then why are they building it?

        Additionally, where does the extra capacity for all these trains come from?  They can't just magic up trains and tracks.

        Stopping the pipeline won't completely stop oil from flowing, but it sure as hell will slow it down.

        •  Here's your answer (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Roadbed Guy, emelyn

          The companies want the pipeline because it will save them money.  They get more profit.

          And the Railroads are already ramping up more trains for this stuff, and the tracks are already there.  Check the various links that have been posted.  Some of the right of ways they will use have been there for hundreds of years.

          So, what do we win?  That's my question that you haven't answered.  More carbon put into the atmosphere in the transportation of this stuff, and more huge oil trains like that one, statistically leading to more accidents and spills than a pipeline that we're fighting against?  And we're doing this why?  So the oil companies lose a bit of profit or miss a production target by six months?  Insanity.  

          There's no possible victory here.  No real one.  We either get to say "we won and don't worry about more oil barges and trains" or we get to say "we lost but the oil will be shipped safer and we looked like a bunch of lunatics".

          I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

          by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 01:51:51 PM PST

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          •  So it will save money but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Voice from the Cave

            also magically not affect prices?  We win higher prices.  That's what we win.

            There's no possible victory here.  No real one.  We either get to say "we won and don't worry about more oil barges and trains" or we get to say "we lost but the oil will be shipped safer and we looked like a bunch of lunatics".
            Yeah, because the movement is just going to disband after this.  "Yay, we won, global warming is over!!"  That's not how this works.  As I say again and again and again, this is only the beginning.  And you want to give up before we've done anything.

            I'm sure you'll tell me we just need to focus on demand, as if that isn't happening, and tell me that's "action" we can take without actually pointing to anything we can do.  Movements need victories, and what I see right now is a bunch of people trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

            •  Shrugging at higher prices (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, emelyn

              is such a mistake by the movement.  Because it alienates people like me.

              I've got a 05 Prius.  It's got 129k on it.  My job and my son (who lives with my ex) are 50 mi apart.  I live in Atlanta, where public transit is laughable at best.  I don't make a ton of money, and what I do is very specialized and can't be done anywhere.  So guess what?  When you cheer at higher prices, you cheer for less money in my pocket.  I'd happily buy a  more efficient car, but there isn't one.

              I look simply at what is better for the world.  And frankly, I'm not convinced that blocking this pipeline is better for the world.  The only arguments I get, if I'm understanding you correctly, are that "Movements need victories".

              But this victory is directly against what we should be fighting.  The oil is going to get mined/drilled.  It is going to get shipped and sold on the world market.  And we've picked a fight against the safest way to ship it.  This is like fighting against double hulled tankers because it causes more pollution to put that much more steel in the ship.

              Yeah, we might "win."  But its a Pyrrhic victory at best.  A political one at worst.  

              I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

              by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:10:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you for being so eloquent (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                emelyn

                The short-sightedness of the environmental movement drives me into an incoherent rage, which convinces no one.

                But you've calmly and clearly laid out the vast majority of the argument's I would use.

                Consider yourself tipped, because due to site hypocrisy, I cant do it myself.

                "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

                by Whimsical on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:18:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oy vey (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  That is NOT what I was going for.

                  1) I AM a proud environmentalist.  While I don't agree with many of my fellow travelers on this issue, I believe in the movement's long term goals.

                  2) I'm looking at decisions on a case-by-case basis, and that's why I've taken the position I have on Keystone.  What's the best long term outcome given current conditions and reasonable long-term expectations?

                  3) I've enjoyed the give and take of this conversation with those that are against the pipeline.  I hope that I've helped them with their arguments when they face others that are unconvinced, because we share the same overall goals.  

                  4) Frankly, I'd like to see a guarantee in law from Keystone on the number of jobs and a much bigger cut to the United States for allowing this pipeline across our territory.  If we magically don't get that benefit, they have to pay.  

                  I'm off to start my commute.  Have a great day, everyone.

                  I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

                  by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:27:33 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Im confused. (0+ / 0-)

                    I agree with you, and consider you well spoken, and that's not what you were going for? :)

                    "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

                    by Whimsical on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 04:15:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, so fucking wait for the politicians (0+ / 0-)

                That's what all of you folks want us to do.  You continue to ignore the fact that this is that beginning, how many time do I have to say it.  We deal with other forms of transportation later.  They aren't going to be able to transport as much and they aren't going to make as much money and they aren't going to "pump" as much out of the ground.  You want us to sit and wait for the politicians do wave a magic wand and pass a bill they're not going to pass because it will cost us more money.  

                Well, too bad.  This pipeline isn't going to happen.  It's not a pyrrhic victory(where did this talking point come from BTW?  I've seen it regularly now.) it's the first major victory of a campaign.  You're giving up before we even start.

                And I'm sorry if less oil production and higher prices alienates you.  Maybe environmentalists should advocate for free gasoline for everyone, that would win their hearts and minds!!!!

                And I'll end with the same question I keep asking everyone who says stopping this pipeline is a horrible thing: What is your suggestion.  What can people do besides changing their light bulbs.  We face what is potentially an existential threat and you're telling people they just need to wait for the politicians to get over their arguing and fix the problem.  It's bullshit and people know it.

              •  Sorry for the tone in my response (0+ / 0-)

                I'm frustrated and it's really coming through.

            •  Also, tipped (0+ / 0-)

              all your comments this thread for rational, non-screaming debate.  Good will is hard to find on this site sometimes.

              I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

              by The Voice from the Cave on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 02:29:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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