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  •  The pychological trigger for murder and (4+ / 0-)

    suicide is the same

    Your question is irrelevant.

    "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:11:52 AM PST

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    •  Too bad his family got murdered (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SilentBrook

      I'm sure he had his reasons.  And I'm sure somebody happily sold him the gun.  He obviously can pass the background check to keep his family safe.

      Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

      by yet another liberal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:16:21 AM PST

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    •  Bingo! (5+ / 0-)

      See my comment about suicide further on down the thread.  

      As for means, that too is irrelevant.  This kind of thing has happened many times before, and it is not always men who do it.  Andrea Yeats drowned her kids.  Joseph Goebbels poisoned his kids before taking his own life with his pistol.  

      I have spent much of my adult life studying suicide and murder and have taught a post-graduate course on the subject.  Sometimes they are hard to tell apart.  

      The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

      by Otteray Scribe on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:35:59 AM PST

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      •  I think that's kind of crazy (0+ / 0-)

        I can tell the difference between suicide and murder.  If somebody else kills themself, then I'm still alive.

        Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

        by yet another liberal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:42:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You did not understand the point. (5+ / 0-)

          I have worked on a number of cases where it was not clear if the death was a suicide, murder or accidental death.  

          The last time I testified in Federal District Court, there were conflicting claims by law enforcement, the medical examiner and insurance company doctors whether the deceased person's cause of death was an accident or suicide. As a result of my research and investigation, which I explained to the jury, they came back with a verdict of accident.  The insurance company had to pay his policy.

          Sometimes it really is hard to tell.  You do not teach a doctoral level course based on fluff and opinion pulled out of thin air. It is a research based course.  

          The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

          by Otteray Scribe on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:52:07 AM PST

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          •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

            But it isn't unclear in the case the diarist brought up, right?  The guy murdered his family, then killed himself.  He could have been a decent person (un-evil) and just killed himself and let them live.  They didn't want to die.

            Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

            by yet another liberal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 08:55:30 AM PST

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            •  I was responding to Horace, (5+ / 0-)

              not to Doc in that comment.  Your response to me was that you can tell the difference between murder and suicide, implying that such a determination is easy.  In most cases it is, but a good investigator never takes anything for granted.

              I have worked on cases where the suicidal person cleverly staged the suicide to look like murder to either frame somebody, or to get insurance to pay.  Some murders are disguised as suicides.  

              All too many insurance companies are quick to claim accidental deaths are suicide, such as single car accidents.

              There are experts in what is called psychological autopsy who have made a study...and a good living...by being able to sort out the difference.  

              The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

              by Otteray Scribe on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 09:11:58 AM PST

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            •  Suicidal ideation is not normal thinking (0+ / 0-)

              at all. You do not consider the killing of a spouse or children as something awful. It is to spare them the horror of life you perceive. Legally it is murder. Even I knew it would be considered murder. My mind was convinced it was the best for them.

              Fortunately, I had a lot of ways to stall and delay in the probability the thoughts would pass. Also had an out many who are suicidal don't. Mine was SAD. All I had to do was move about 2000 miles south.

              "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

              by Ginny in CO on Sat Feb 23, 2013 at 04:55:12 AM PST

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          •  They aren't understanding the psychological (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Otteray Scribe, gerrilea

            dynamics of morals.

            "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 09:25:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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