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  •  once more, we should point out that (27+ / 0-)

    the Dems were not innocent bystanders either.  Only ONE person in Congress voted against the Authorization to Use Military Force. While a couple of low-level Dem gadflies spoke out against the war, no one in the Dem party leadership did. Indeed, even after the invasion turned into a fiasco, the Dem party was blabbering NOT that it was a mistake to go and we should get out now--they were arguing that the Dubya Administration was effing it all up, and a Dem Adminstration could win the war.

    It wasn't until Ned Lamont ran on an openly anti-war platform and won the primary (against the opposition of the Dem party leadership, who then refused to back Lamont in the general election) that the Dem Party bigwigs were shocked into the realization that there actually was an opposition to the war. A big one. Indeed, some junior Senator from Illinois became a spokesperson for that opposition and rode that wave all the way to the White House, defeating both the Dem Party/Hillary machine AND the GOP machine.

    The idea that the lying dishonest Dubya Administration pushed us into a war over the resistance and objections of the Democratic Party, are simply not true. The Dems were enthusiastic cheerleaders for the war, from day one, and indeed argued for years that they could run the war BETTER than the Repugs were, and WIN it.

    •  Falling for a lie and... (22+ / 0-)

      ...perpetrating the lie are two very different things.

      I'm too [insert adjective of choice, e.g., sane] to vote Republican.

      by Linus Too on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 01:16:24 PM PST

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    •  I think you're confusing the (2+ / 0-)

      2001 AUMF, regarding 9/11, Al Qaeda, and Afghanistan, and  the 2002 AUMF regarding Iraq. Only one member of congress voted against the former. 133 members of the House of Representatives, and 23 senators, voted against the latter.

      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 03:22:45 PM PST

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    •  Lenny, you are on fire today! (0+ / 0-)

      I just wish you weren't right.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 03:37:37 PM PST

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    •  Dem Party/Hillary machine (0+ / 0-)

      hahahaha.  You mean the same machine he uses to fill cabinet spots?

      •  well yeah, aside from all the Wall Street guys ;) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Heart of the Rockies, apimomfan2

        Ironic, isn't it, that I supported Obama in the primary because I had already lived through two Clinton terms and didn't want to see two more---and that's what we got anyway.

        (But to be fair to Obama, in a way he really didn't have much of a choice---other than Clinton, the Dems hadn't seen the inside of the White House since Carter, so if he wanted a Democrat with any White House experience, the Clintonistas were the only game in town.)

    •  that's the left's stupidity of ignoring talk radio (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annominous

      the problem was that a hundred coordinated blowhard chickenhawks and some paid callers on 1000 of the loudest radio stations in the country were louder than the millions of protestors, of which i was one numerous times. we should have been protesting at the radio stations.

      for that reason we weren't getting our reps backs. any rep or objector who showed up in media who wanted to take on bush/ rove and object was getting named on national and local talk radio and the teabagger patriots would scream at them and their staffs and the producers who put them on.

      while dems called for more debate because they may have suspected bush/rove, i heard multiple national and local chickenhawks telling their 'patriotic' chickenhawk audiences (they're called teabaggers now) to call their senators and tell them to "stand up and be counted!" , all using that same term the night before the republicans were trying to force the vote - there's no time for discussion! and the media  went along (they got the same screams of traitor, remember 911!

      easy for you to say:

      The Dems were enthusiastic cheerleaders for the war,
      while you probably had no idea what was happening at your local chickenhawk radio. bush's 'mandate'  to go to war waas created exactly because you and 99% of the left didn't.

      This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

      by certainot on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 05:55:28 PM PST

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      •  um, I was protesting out there with you (0+ / 0-)

        I've been arrested about a dozen times at various protests over the years.

        PS--the Dems WERE enthusiastic cheerleaders for the war. That's one of the reasons I was out there protesting and getting arrested. Against BOTH Gulf Wars.

        •  for both those wars we should have gone to the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annominous

          radio stations to wave signs.

          talk radio was rove's most important tool but there was no recognition of that. while we were in the middle of the street with tear gas or over at the capitol they had a few yapping twit chickenhawks with giant microphones yelling rove and pentagon talking points over us the rest of the month. same as with OWS. and it's the same with global warming.

          benghazi was nothing without talk radio doing the groundwork screaming repetition. dems could have seen it coming, instead, whether it was better or not, rice is successfully swiftboated and it's another slowdown distraction and a senate seat up for grabs.

          they've got think tanks full of PR pros monitoring and designing campaigns and laundering them into made-to-order constituencies for any occasion and the only reason they can do it is that the left ignores their talk radio megaphone.

          i'm sure WE would not have been intimidated if we were voting then!!!

          now we have a 'democracy' where reps have to think about getting shot, or going down in small planes, or their family's safety, just because some jackass on the loudest stations in the country names them. and the left/dems/liberals that claim to get their backs have no idea because it hurts their ears to listen to it. it's pitiful.

          the stoprush boycott bunch have done more for democracy the last year than any of our protests.

          This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

          by certainot on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 07:21:53 PM PST

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          •  It's still important. Still needed. (0+ / 0-)

            Radio is and always has been a life line in rural areas, and for at least two and a half decades rural radio has been dominated by right wing hate talk shows. Many people who live in those areas are so deeply propagandized by RW hate that they cannot recognize that there is any legitimate opposition to gop-hate opinions.  These listeners consider Limbaugh and Hannity to be mainstream and moderate, Beck's well-accepted too. All the shows are playing on multiple channels simultaneously. Almost every station has more extreme, locally-grown wannabes spewing very extreme views over the air, in hopes of making it big in the radio business. Radio stations in small communities are big business, staffed with local celebrities.

            Rural hate-radio listeners are hard working people who should be voting democratic, but instead they vote pure red. If you dare to ask them why, they'll tell you it's about job losses they blame on environmentalists; it's over 2nd amendment fears and big government fears; it's about climate change denial (and this from people with degrees in science!); it's over perceptions of excessive taxation.  It's about knuckling under to the "job creators". It's about the topics amplified daily by AM radio.

            Hate radio defines social norms in these areas. Targeting advertisers in these markets will be difficult.

            •  couple more things besides boycott that might help (0+ / 0-)

              it's a major shame that it's gotten to this point and still a problem none of the major progressive groups nor the dem party has any organized response to try to challenge it. and many of those low-pop areas have 2 senators

              the boycott is helping and i think in the rural areas you talk about there is still  common sense - it's just that there are NO alternatives.  there are additional angles for fixing the radio.

              many of the bigger stations in those states are piggybacking universities though, and those unis, no matter where they are, have no excuse for their endorsement of RW hate and disinformation. and especially the global warming denial. without that uni sports association a lot of RW stations will suffer and may have to find alternatives.

              also, any discrediting of the main talk radio gods in public and real time on the national level will translate all over and to the wannabes that repeat the same material. that should also be a priority.

              also a searchable databank of the main talkers transcripts would help. maybe it could be scrambled a bit to get around copyright laws. transcription software could make it automated. that way the coordination could be exposed and pointed out to the press and politicians so they would stop pretending the sudden explosions of 'outrage' weren't as organic and popular as suggested by the GOP.

              that should be a no-brainer at the dem party level anyway- i just heard the state at. general on the local radio morning show telling the audience over an dover to call their reps to help the GOP gov against some legislation in the state. and that's the same station rove used to attack one of the last at. generals for not going after fictitious voter fraud.

              This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

              by certainot on Mon Feb 25, 2013 at 09:55:38 AM PST

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