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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: drunk and violent edition (127 comments)

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  •  WaPo (11+ / 0-)
    A bipartisan group of senators is on the verge of a deal that would expand background checks to all private firearms sales with limited exemptions, but significant disagreements remain on the issue of keeping records of private gun sales, according to aides familiar with the talks.

    An agreement would be a bold first step toward consideration of legislation to limit gun violence in the wake of the mass shootings at a Connecticut elementary school in December and comes as the Senate Judiciary Committee is expected this week to begin considering new proposals to limit gun violence.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 05:31:49 AM PST

    •  It's ridiculous (11+ / 0-)

      to try and suppress keeping records of gun sales if you're have to register your gun anyway.

      Democrats say that keeping records of private sales is necessary to enforce any new law and because current federal law requires licensed firearm dealers to keep records. Records of private sales also would help law enforcement trace back the history of a gun used in a crime, according to Democratic aides. Republicans, however, believe that records of private sales could put an undue burden on gun owners or could be perceived by gun rights advocates as a precursor to a national gun registry.
      We have to keep records of car sales and house sales and drug sales, etc.  That doesn't seem to be an "undue burden" to most people.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 05:45:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  so a thought experiment (5+ / 0-)

        what if it took 'no registry' to pass the house?

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 06:03:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll take it. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, KenBee

          I'm not of the "all or nothing crowd", I'm one of the "it's a start" crowd.

          “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

          by skohayes on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 06:37:09 AM PST

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        •  It would be the ultimate Village "Solution" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tb mare, LilithGardener, luckydog

          "Both sides gave and found a solution in the middle." I can hear Cokie Roberts triumphantly just short of shouting that some Monday morning.

          No records keeping means avoiding potential liability. And no "downward pressure on future sales projections." And we absolutely need some liability assessed and "downward pressure on future sales projections."

          When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

          by Egalitare on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 06:37:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I have suggested exactly that (0+ / 0-)

          and have suggested a way to be able to backtrack the gun to the new owner w/o this being a de facto gun registry.

          Whine all you want, that is what it is perceived to be: a de facto gun registry....theme courtesy of the NRA and flak/hack media.  
               This theme, the de facto gun database would be exactly the kind of flawed database we have in many circles, the no fly list being an obvious one, and it provides much of the energy that can derail this basic good proposal. The gun database is not a complete gun registry but is obviously one gathering data from new purchases/transfers. It is strongly opposed by gun owners etc., and an obvious hook for the NRA fear mongering  That's how it is perceived, that's how it and anything with it will be attacked.

          I think the national gun ssn database is exactly the poison pill dirt bags (ie: lying politicians R and L, NRA hacks) on both sides WANT in this, for this to fail so they can continue to fear monger and fund raise over this issue. Need i say.....yeah, here, definetly I do: not all people on both sides here are dirt bags.

             Unfortunately the fact that they who are working on this already have included it means they are too dumb for their responsibilities or they are insincere hacks.

          I don't believe either side really wants this to change, but we will see.
           Too cynical maybe...I hope so.

          .........................

          Track the applicant not the gun. A continued path of searchable applications is what is wanted...sub rosa dealer/straw purchaser goes to every gun store and applies for one purchase is a tactic of some straw purchasers..this applicant tracking is necessary...the gun ssn database tracking is not necessary and will prevent, politically, this change from happening.

          If a gun is recovered at a crime scene, it can be searched for at the FFL dealer's records, with a warrant, easily obtained.    
               The FFL is already required to maintain these records as part of their FFL status.  Gun tracking problem solved, when necessary, and no central database to be hacked for vandal points or profit.   Legislation passed less strongly opposed.
               The central gun ssn database is also a problem because after the straw purchasers are blocked they(criminals) will pay a lot more for a list of gun purchasers....and remember the names and addresses were published by that newspaper? And yesterday someone here advocated again in the internet comment screed for a public database of guns and gun owners, gee, imagine there could be opposition to a similar sounding proposal...

           To get this done, or anything related, successfully, will require exactly that: eliminate the poison pill of the national de facto gun registry database...or else we can continue to play 'Why do Republicans hate people' theater and get nothing done.

          So what's it going to be?

          Parades, posturing, and whining, or real positive incremental change?

          ...and no sneaking it in as some amendment later, another poison pill trick..if some politician wants to put their name behind a national gun database..well...go ahead, but please make it a stand way the fuck alone proposal so the blowback doesn't ruin anything good nearby.

          This machine kills Fascists.

          by KenBee on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 03:54:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  car sales are tracked so government can get (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg Dworkin, wintergreen8694

        their pound of flesh and the enforcement is through the license plate.  The enforcement is through cops running your plate to make sure you have registered your vehicle.  The question is how gun transfers will be regulated since they are not displayed in public as cars are and they don't have easily visible plates.  The older ones' serial #s are frequently hard to read w/o being "raised"  

        •  there are (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          entlord, LilithGardener, KenBee

          legitimate objections/concerns as to how to do this.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 06:42:18 AM PST

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          •  which is why I don't argue against it but instead (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KenBee

            I am trying to wrap my mind around the "how" of the details.  I already see ways that people manage to "get around" vehicle registration rules and there is less incentive there than there would be to conceal a private sale of a firearm.
            Of course, I assume such an action would be self financing, given the public Kabuki by our pols over the deficit, and any sort of fee or tax to register a private sale would probably meet more resistance than just registration of private sales

          •  car sales untracked until registry (0+ / 0-)

            and operation without on public roads illegal until registered and licensed...different: a private transfer can happen, it's the use that is regulated on public roads.

            I can buy a parts car, don't have to file anything, unless I want to legally use the motor ot ssn'd body parts. Legally.

            The seller to protect himself would be wise to file the
            'I sold it' paperwork should the car be found in some circumstance that might cost him/her.

            This machine kills Fascists.

            by KenBee on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 03:58:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  All gun transfers should have to go through (4+ / 0-)

          a licensed gun dealer for a transfer fee. Private sales would be a felony. Gun dealers would like it, because it would increase their business by upwards of 40% and possession of a firearm without the requisite papers would be a crime. If you look at the crime statistics, it is pretty clear that privately acquired guns are a major source of violent crime.

          For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

          by Anne Elk on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 08:00:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  it would be interesting to see if you could (0+ / 0-)

            criminalize the private disposition of private property by a private individual in a private transaction.  I am not sure I can think of another example where such a transaction is banned.   After all, even with liquor, which is the closest example, I can give someone $20 to run to the liquor store to get me a bottle

            •  That isn't exactly what I am suggesting. (0+ / 0-)

              It's really more like transferring ownership of a car. You do have to tell the DMV and insurance carrier about the transaction. In this case, the equivalent of the DMV would be a licensed gun dealer. But that reminds me also of the need to require liability insurance for all gun owners.

              For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

              by Anne Elk on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 11:29:37 AM PST

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              •  so if my nearest FFL dealer is 50 miles away (0+ / 0-)

                (or even more, this is the boonies) and my neighbor wants to sell me his daddy's shotgun because he needs to pay his light bill (this also happens in some places), we would have to go to the dealer to transact the sale?  With cars, I can do title transfers online and by mail or by proxy.  Gun sales are supposed to be by the person who will own and use the gun, instead of the infamous straw man sales?
                BATF would be the ultimate custodian supposedly of such records so why add a middleman which would increase costs?

                Also I take it that the FFL dealer would charge a fee of $25-$50 for the cost of doing business since $25 is the local customary fee for transfers for guns bought on auction by private individuals.

                •  Well, that'd be a shame but guess what? (0+ / 0-)

                  We don't create laws based on the odd anecdote. We base them on what is most effective for most cases.

                  For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

                  by Anne Elk on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 12:14:22 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  but the great thing about this country is my (0+ / 0-)

                    voice is equal to yours and if my voice is in the minority, it is still respected.  Therefore, laws are not based on the most effective solution or else we would never need to repeal them

    •  Why do Republicans insist on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl

      "personal responsibility" for everything an ordinary citizen  does except those actions stemming from ownership of firearms?  The land of cognitive dissonance these people in - no wonder they live lives of hate and fear.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sun Feb 24, 2013 at 10:07:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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