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View Diary: Has there been a "regime change" at the Daily Kos? (110 comments)

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  •  I'm Catholic and I have had no problems (12+ / 0-)

    Of course I also feel that the Catholic church is completely fucked up.  It's full of pedophiles, enablers, hypocrites and liars.  That's just in the Vatican.  The Catholic Church has earned the scorn shown here and elsewhere.

    This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

    by DisNoir36 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 at 01:28:17 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for making my point. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hey338Too, duckhunter, cka
      •  You welcome (10+ / 0-)

        but why you would want to defend a church that has serious issues is beyond me.  That is unless you support priests molesting children, the church proactively trying to cover crimes up, diverting funds to pay people off, strong arming victims, bullying people and church members to adhere to a certain rigid ideology espoused by a very small minority, taking stances on women health issues that over 90 of women disagree with, promoting bigotry and hatred, engaging in politics and basically going against most everything that was taught to us in the Bible.  

        Like I said, I've been catholic all my life but I'm ashamed of my church and its leadership.  If you're okay with it, so be it.

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 at 01:49:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Come on DN... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lujane

          ... this isn't the point of the diary.  And many of us who frequent the diaries discussed in this diary can relate to greenbell's situation.

          I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

          by Hey338Too on Tue Feb 26, 2013 at 01:59:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Is there any question as to (5+ / 0-)

        the failings of the Catholic Church? Is there any unfair criticism of this organization which, in a highly organized and formal way sanctioned and protected child molesters on every populated continent? How anyone can feel slighted by the well-deserved scorn heaped on today's Church is beyond comprehension. It is an organization that stands against contraception, against sexual gratification in all forms with the exception of marital relations aimed at procreation, against women having as much responsibility as men, against the distribution of condoms to prevent STDs, and against homosexuals in the most vile ways. And then there is the issue of protecting priests who rape children. Come on.

        •  With all due respect doc... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lujane, JamieG from Md

          ... and having read and recced your comment below, this is off topic for this diary.

          I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

          by Hey338Too on Tue Feb 26, 2013 at 02:03:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It is a religion (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too, misslegalbeagle, cynndara

          Last time I looked religion was protected by the Civil Rights Act.  Religion is a special case precisely because it is so likely to generate division, discrimination and bigotry.  

          You feel entirely uninhibited in your derision towards the Church in which I was baptized.   I don't find that particularly tolerant of you.   But as a practical matter, for the foreseeable future, you are going to need a very large number of us despicable Catholics to elect Democrats.  In fact you might even nominate one of us in 2016.  

          •  I honestly do not see how an ethical person can (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mookins, skohayes, Eyesbright, Deep Texan

            fail to be other than derisive of the RCC's leadership.  In that regard, I am intolerant, indeed.

          •  Several aunts of mine are nuns; grandpa left (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Prof Haley, justiceputnam, Eyesbright

            the farm to the Church- Intel sits there now- they hold family reunions on church grounds and...

             whenever anything approaching the subject of Church wrongdoing comes up, they are visibly ashamed.

            They WANT to work the problem, and know that facing up to it is the first step in that effort.

          •  Most Catholics I know (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pasadena beggar

            are deeply ashamed of their church.  Most were left wondering why for first time in over SIX HUNDRED FUCKING YEARS a pope resigns.  We're all left to conclude that it has something with either the child molestations or homosexuality and hypocrisy.

            I too was baptized in the Catholic Church.  I had my first communion, I was confirmed.  I was an altar boy for recently retired Cardinal of DC Theodore McCarrick.  I was an altar boy in TWO churches, read the bible in TWO languages, taught catechism and went to catholic schools through College.  So  I think I have a bit of a right to criticize my church.  

            I don't tolerate hypocrites and child molesters.  I guess you do.  You have every right to practice whatever religion you want.  What you DON'T have a right to do is aid and abet child molesters.  Last I checked that is STILL a crime even if pieces of religious shits like Cardinals Mahoney, Egan or Dolan shielded the predators til the statute of limitations ran out.  And lets not even mention Ratzinger.

            I frankly don't have a problem with Catholics but I have a BIG problem with the leaders of the church.  Democrats don't need them.  What Democrats need are good honest Catholics who like myself are utterly disgusted with what has happened to our church.  Frankly supporting criminals and enablers will do the Democratic Party more harm than good.  Let the GOP have them.  They'll be right at home with the Mark Foleys of the world over there.

            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

            by DisNoir36 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 04:55:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  There is, I think, a difference between (6+ / 0-)

        attacking the Church as an institution and attacking Catholicism as such.

        No institution is beyond criticism and it does seem to me that the Catholic Church, as an institution, has recently made every effort to lay itself open to criticism. If leaders of the Church are trying to make themselves look bad, I can only observe that they're doing a very good job in that respect.

        Catholicism on the other hand is quite a different matter. While I may not agree with someone on matters of faith (and not being Catholic myself I would not likely agree with some of its tenets), it is unseemly to turn that into a personal attack or an attack on the faith as such. For that reason I would not under any circumstances ask someone who's a practicing Catholic why they don't embrace some other religion. It's not my job to tell others to change their beliefs.

        •  How is the Catholic religion not (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pasadena beggar, Eyesbright

          inextricably tied to the Catholic Church and the Vatican? And who here ever blasts Catholics for just being Catholic? The (much deserved, IMO) criticisms are directed at this hierarchical, organized religion that is infected with a foul corruption throughout its priestly ranks.

          •  I see no obvious and inevitable connection... (4+ / 0-)

            between the basics of Catholic theology and many of their political statements. In fact there are many Catholics who disagree strenuously with those statements. But those people are not wearing robes and mitres. And the ones who are frequently get silenced by those higher up.

            Indeed the criticisms are usually directed at the church but I see here, not infrequently, attacks that might be legitimate if they were directed to the hierarchy instead being directed to each and every member of the faith. I say this as a mainly non-practicing Jew that while I'm happy to criticize that State of Israel when its government behaves badly, and to call out any member of the American rabbinate who makes a stupid and bigoted statement, but I'd be very offended if someone took that as an excuse to attack Jews or Judaism as such.

            By virtue of the way the Catholic Church is organized it lays itself open to public critique whenever it takes contentious policy positions or attempts to cover up for the wrongdoings of its clergy but I do not believe at all that there is anything intrinsic to Catholicism as such that REQUIRES it to do those things.

            •  There you go (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hey338Too, bigjacbigjacbigjac

              We of Irish descent share with Jews a sometimes obsessive story telling of the wrongs done to us in the past due to our ethnicity and religious faith.  These were not mere slights but organized efforts to wipe our culture from the face of the earth.  So religion and ethnicity and culture and history are deeply interlinked.  

            •  Weallll . . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bigjacbigjacbigjac

              There IS the small problem of the Donatio Constantine, which set the Catholic Church up (by fraud) as the supposed successor to the Imperial power of Rome, with all of the injustice, corruption, and abuse of power that that entailed.  As one writer put it, "The Pope took up the robes of the Pontifex Maximus without bothering to shake out the fleas of politics".  But in fact it was more a matter of deliberately making off with the robes and every flea they could grab with them.

              And that was really the origin of the Catholic Church, and its growing separation from the Orthodox Churches, which instead of usurping secular power remained firmly subservient to the Emperor and later the secular states of their own localities.  A historical issue which may lie at the heart of the Roman Church's rather arrogant approach to its lay members and unthinking protection of its hierarchy.  Roman magistrates, after all,were never answerable to the citizenry, only to the rulers above them.

              None  of which changes the fact that within and alongside of this arrogant hierarchy that continues to manifest all the cruelty of the Empire, works a spiritual tradition going back to St. Peter, enlivened by the lives and works of saints, transmitted by the efforts of monastic orders, periodically re-invigorated by the likes of Francis of Assisi, Theresa of Avila, and Joan of Arc.  There is beauty here, and nourishment for those who seek it, and it's uncouth to insult people who choose to do so.

              Ummmm . . . it's Tuesday AND a Full Moon.  I must be getting Catholic again.

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